The Official PC building thread -3rd Edition

USB 3 I'm really looking forward to. External hard drives abound when they get that running. As far as GTA4 goes, the primary cause of lag is only having a dual core processor. Since you have a quad, a lot of the load of your GPU has been removed. I've seen GTA4 done on a 8600GT anyway, my friend has one, though only has a 22" monitor. Even so I think he played at 1024x768 minimum detail. It ran OK. He has a 2Ghz Core 2 Duo (laptop grade, but in a mini-ITX desktop PC). Conversely, my other friend's PC with a more powerful X1900XT and an Athlon X2 4200+ can't run the game above a handful of frames per second (less than 10 in a lot of instances) at absolute minimum, 640x480. It's all down to the CPU.

 

Yah...Usb 2 is becoming/IS a joke anymore. People now have HIGH demands of their usb ports. Im hoping they release add-in cards first LOL! I can think of a few drives i'd love to run externally, without hindering their speeds! And I would like to stretch this mobo at least a little longer than the last one.

 

Yeah, add-in cards will come first I expect. It will take time for motherboard manufacturers to adapt, and very few people will be willing to buy new boards just for faster USB.

 

You obviously have lower expectations than me then... haha

The thing I want most of all is to try and remove the 21MB/s write speed cap for Windows file sharing.

 

I haven't bought a console since the Gamecube. And I didnt own that one long LOL. I see where your coming from creaky. The troubles with the 360 have kinda kept me from buying one though. And since a PC could be running its games inside a year or two...LOL. I have a great deal of patience. Not however for waiting to play GTA IV! And since I spend more time on a PC, it was the right choice to give it SOME gaming capabilities. Besides, I get more satisfaction out of a Built gaming machine, then an Xbox, PS3, etc. However, I could see buying a PS3 if my financial situation were not as rough as it is.

 

Creaky: We have two 360s, a console we share, which has been modded, and a retail console of the newer Falcon generation (2 of 3) - the Falcon console draws 90W from the wall, not the 165W the old revision draws, it barely gets warm, and with the games installed to the bigger 60GB HDD, it makes much less noise, even the fans are slightly better, and thanks to the lower heat, spin up less. I'm not too fond that it has a Benq drive in it, but it's not as if I had much choice.
Tempting fate by saying this, but our late 2006 console has so far been relatively good, reliability wise.

Hehe, 'latest graphics cards' - I'm not so young I don't know that was a budget card, I owned one, only cost about 60 quid at the time. The Ti 4200 and 4600 were the cards to have back then. You're right though, it's an expensive hobby. I just think it's a better alternative to throwing money away on drink and/or fags...

 

Sam,
By the numbers!
1. High END and High Quality are completely different.
R: I built a higher end x2 and I look for High Quality
2. Pentium D systems with basic graphics still use less than 200W.
R: Overclocked to 3.83GHz the CPU alone draws about 235w
3. Most weak PSUs will survive up to about half load with no noticeable issue
R: I only owned one that bad, and this ain't it!
4. Most weak PSUs will not stand up to running the wattage they are rated for
R: Most PSUs won't. It depends on the efficiency of the unit.
5. A weak PSU is any PSU designed to the standard layout for a wattage figure lower than what is printed on the label.
R: I know how to read, and you have to look closely to see how the power is dished out! See #4
6. The speed of correction is because Loadline Calibration is a relatively instantaneous technology. That's not hardware quality, that's just how the tech in your board has been designed
R: It still has to have good stable power supplying it, either way. All the load line calibration in the world won't help a PSU who's voltages are all over the map.
7. There is a lot more to a fan than just how much noise it makes and how much air it moves.
R: I don't get that deep with fans. I buy fans that suit my airflow needs, and look for something quiet that meets those needs
8. To use three 120mm fans at once (not uncommon in a lot of systems) FM121s will mean at least two fan controllers lying in the middle of the case, or modification to use a backplate.
R: I usually use two. an 80mm and a 120mm. I use the port bracket that comes with the 80mm to mount the controllers on the rear. It holds 3 controls. I've also mounted them on the front using a bay blank when there's a door. I almost never touch them!
9. To use any number of 120mm fans from any other manufacturer, plug it in and away you go
R: I run few fans off of my motherboard. Most of my fans are plugged into the Molex plugs on the PSU. 3 of my 120's are 1200 rpm and run at that speed, one is 800 and the 80mm SS is set to 1450 RPM.
10. 'Cheap' is a relative concept. Just because something is expensive does not mean it is good. That is Donald's principle, and even moreso in reverse.
R: Yes, there is a difference between cheap and inexpensive!
11. The worst thing to do to convince people in an argument is to make false accusations regarding their choices, but oh look!
R: Especially since you were the one making the false accusations? You went a bit over the top in condemning the Silverstones, and you know it. The Earthwatts do run very warm here, and are quite loud because of that. My findings, and I can only report what I find to be true. Probably due to the excessive heat here!
12. Contrary to the Thermaltake, the EarthWatts 380W is a 380W unit.
R: I answered that one already in the last post!
13. Since spotting an 80mm fan in the PSU you immediately assume it's noisy. That isn't always the case.
R: I answered that one already too. I assumed nothing!
14. The fan in the Earthwatts PSU typically runs no higher than 1400rpm in a system drawing 180W (7-blade). Remind me, what speed is your 80mm fan when you say it's super quiet and you can hear a pin drop?
R: maybe where you live they run that slow, but it get's too hot here 4 to 5 months out of the year. Power is generally poor here too, and too often drops below 100v. That's why I added a Boost transformer and designed a voltage regulator/line conditioner for our computer outlets. I can maintain 111v to 115v, even when the power drops as low as 97v. That Speed would have been 1300 RPM. You know what, it's at 1450 RPM right now and even with the AC on, I can still hear a pin hit the floor. My friend Adam, just to be a Smart A, just tried me out on it and after three tries, concedes that I heard all three! From about 6 feet away too!
15. The top cover of my file server with its Earthwatts is cool to the touch. It would be cooler still if I used a faster exhaust fan, right now it's at 950rpm.
R: Like I said, perhaps it's the higher temperatures here! That and all the dust. It's just not a good environment here.

It's all hair splitting anyway. You seem to forget one very important thing. I see all types of computers. Hundreds of them a year ranging from pre-built to custom. Repairwise, I see mostly customs. I also get to spend some time with a lot more different components than you do, and I keep notes on my findings. And thanks to my Doctor friends, I get to see stuff that I could only dream of owning. If it's the latest and greatest in LGA775 or AM2+, I've usually had some experience with it, or at least seen it. I also see a lot of the highest end motherboards from Asus, Biostar, DFI Gigabyte and MSI. I've also had the chance to experience the SkullTrail, 3 different motherboard, QX9770 rigs. 1 Rampage Formula, 1 DFI and 1 Gigabyte. I've also played games on a QX9650 in a EP45-DQ6 and on another with a DFI Lanparty MB. Most people here will never see any of that class of stuff as it's priced out of most of our reach. If I was buying, I think that the QX9650 would be my choice, on the DFI MB! At $1000+ for the QX9650, I doubt we'll be seeing many of them here. I'd love to have one, but it's out of my price range! I'm glad to have friends that can afford things like that, because it gives me a wealth of knowledge and experience I might not have had otherwise! That's the key! The experience!

It might be helpful if you looked back and see what you've said about certain products in the past, because quite often lately you keep contradicting yourself! Shaff used to do the same thing and then accuse me of twisting his words! Why you want to take issue with me all the time, is another question in itself!

Russ

 

Ok guys give it a rest.Your both great knowledge.But lets get back on topic and settle down into a pm to each other and get out some more good info to the rest of us.

 

No way you're going to get me to dream of a Dell Optiplex because I see enough of those at work. Just go to the budget shelves at BestBuy that should cure the craving. LOL

If I had to do a budget build I would consider looking at an AMD setup, but with my Q9650, Q9550 (both EO), E8400, E6700,E6600, and Opteron 175 (yep still have it too) I'm happy for now. I keep my endorphins up by building, upgrading, and repairing for others. On another note 6402 just built two AMD builds, although he got his parts at an absurdly cheap price. For those who don't know him, 6402 is a very experienced builder and a long time overclocker. We've been debating and competing with each other off and on since the spring of 2004. In fact a couple of people on this thread met us in a thread here at AD in just such a debate but with brobear as the antagonist.

 

Sophocles,
Hmm, a Skulltrail in a Dell Optiplex case. It would probably overheat! LOL!! I certainly hope the ones you see at work are at least P-IIIs.

Russ

 

I sure hope you guys will correct ME when I contradict myself. It would not surprise me at all. I have a pretty selective memory. So dont be alarmed or insulted if I dont remember something you've told me, or something that ive stated myself. Usually, only things that intrigue me, are allowed to hither in my brain LOL! Nah, generally it depends on my mood at the time.

 

Oman7,
What's the Latencies on that "Selective Memory", BTW!! ROFLMSOAO!!

Just Funnin with ya,
Russ

 

LOL. Not good enough

Boy, I cant wait for the GPU to get here now. Im itching to play GTA now. I figured I would wait for that card now. My 8600 is enjoyable, but since the 260 will smoke it in every way imaginable, I figured I would wait and experience it the way it was meant to be played

I wonder how much OC'ing it can handle. It is a Black edition.

 

Omega: I didn't realise you'd bought an XFX, I thought it was BFG? The XFX Black edition cards are awesome, but BFG use moe subtle overclocks, and basically leave it up to you to push it to the limit.

Russ: Sorry, what? Apparently, you answered most of those points in the post before I even wrote them. SHort answer, no you didn't.
You claim you 'look for high quality' - you don't look for anything, a certain product comes out, you're all over it like it's going out of fashion, and you won't accept anything else. You were quite happy to pass the blame off to the ATI when the OBG didn't work out as expect on your 790G board, despite the fact that it's an AMD chipset as a whole, and that OBG chip is an AMD design.
If a Pentium D at 3.83Ghz used 235W, it would shut down due to overheat, even with a TRUE, let alone the cooler you used it with. It would also melt the 4-pin ATX connector.
The efficiency of a PSU has absolutely zero to do with how well they stand up to load. As someone who knows a thing or to about electronics, you surprise me. The basic AOpen, Qtec etc. units that shut down at 1/4 load are under 25% efficient are they?
So you read the label on the Thermaltake 430W, and spotted that those figures mean it's actually a 300W. Why did you argue then?
THe level of Vdroop with even relatively good motherboards like the P35C-DS3R is about 5%. that's 0.6V on a 12V rail, a variation of that strength is enough to destabilise a system, but you'd never spot it underneath the vdroop of a board.

I'll stop there. It's the same old argument
"you're making false accusations!"
"NO YOU're making false accusations!"
"NO YOU're making false accusations!"
"you changed your mind!"
"NO YOU changed your mind!"
It's petty, it's retarded, I've had enough.

Quite frankly I have neither the time or the patience to keep people on track in this thread any more. Unsubscribed.

I'm just fortunate you haven't corrupted the other threads on the site. I'm really beginning to see why Shaffaaf left now.

 

I hadn't realized that you had secretly been placed in control of this thread.

This thread does indeed go off track quite a bit as a result of arguments between individuals, and generally as a result of the same old cause. Someone builds something or recommends something that they're proud of, and then along comes someone else who disagrees with their choices and supplants theirs in its place. It's OK to do that as long as it's being offering as another alternative instead of being used as a club to beat down the previous person's choice. To do that doesn't make your alternative necessarily better until others weigh in and the person asking for help is finally helped, it makes you a Troll.

I work with kids who are name-brand conscious. It goes like this. One evening their mothers takes them out and buys them designer or brand labeled clothing, and a pair of $200 Michael Jordan running shoes. The next day the kid comes to class with all the original tags still on his clothing hanging out for everyone to see (he doesn't need the tag for a pair of Jordan's). Then somewhere in the class another student who is jealous and who given the chance would wear his own tagged clothing begins to dis the student's new stuff, and an argument ensues. I try to explain to them that the same stuff is often available under no name tags often for a much lower price, and that the $200 Jordan's are really no better than my $35 Nike's or Reebok's. Alas to no avail. To make my point home I needed some casual pants and polo shirts, and I wear running shoes to work every day so I went shopping. The next day I walked into class and proudly displayed my Wal-Mart tags to the stunned look on my students' faces.

The point is that any piece of equipment is only as good as the purpose it intends to serve, and the quality of its manufacturer. I have a 5 year old 500 watt Allied power supply I pulled out of a friends dead computer because I collect parts. It has since survived being continually used from that time. I first threw it in a budget gaming rig I built for my son, and after I built him a new system for more than 2 years of 24/7 folding. Are Allied power supplies crap? I do and have always thought so. Would I consider purchasing one? Not a chance, although this unit has never caused any issues or failed, and is running at this moment. Anyone that didn't know what it is because I hid the tags would assume that it's a quality power supply.

Surfing the net and buying the best stuff to be able to build a second, third, or even 10th rig doesn't make one an expert, or especially knowledgeable, but it is a good start in that direction. Some of us build far more than that every year, and have been doing so for many years going well into a second decade. It takes just as much knowledge and effort to spec out and build an inexpensive high quality system, perhaps even more than it does to simply buy the best, because it rides at the top of a performance list.

 

Spotted this point, which is well made and I thought I'd respond to it. The argument isn't really over brands specifically, especially since Silverstone make decent PSUs and Cases, and Thermaltake make good PSUs higher up the scale. Slapping an unrecognised brand name on something and getting me to evaluate it objectively wouldn't really have changed what I see here. Neither Thermaltake, Coolermaster, Silverstone or AMD do I have any grudges against or do I consider bad companies such as some other bad PSU/other component manufacturers.
Fact is though, from an objective standpoint it's clear to see that a lot of the stuff Russ hammers into this thread is not just far from the best you can buy, but it's also far from the best you can buy for the money, with the exception of the 430W Thermaltake PSU, because frankly, a PSU that cheap would never be much good anyway.
Disregarding the poor comparative performance of the AMD CPUs to the more expensive Intels, even comparing like to like cost poducts, they're still equal at best, usually still behind. Same goes for the fans, if the economy is so dire, why spend $17 per case fan, when for a start, Silverstone themselves make the FN121, a fan with a reasonable maximum speed, a better material for the surround (so therefore probably better noise levels), no need for the soppy controller, and best of all it's only 10 bucks, not 17.

 

I use the same Silverstone fan that Russ uses in one of my folding rigs and it's perfect for that use. I wouldn't use it in my HTPC but then I also wouldn't highend parts of any kind since the extra power would be wasted. I'm using the 750 Thermaltake Toughpower (made by channel well)in my main rig and it's as effective quite now as it was when I purchased it. I also have two 750 Watt Corsairs which suit my needs perfectly since I will never use more than one video card and it should run two very effectively with just the one 12v rail.


Russ, I have a 650EA Antec which I picked up for $79.99 from Newegg and it's not only cool to the touch but it's fans are almost inaudible. Let's look at it like this. If you take a slightly under powered 430 Watt unit with good fan control then even if it has 120 MM fans it's going to run them faster than a high quality 650 watt unit with 80 MM fans will just keep cool. So which do you think will be the noisier of the two?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371015

Sam, there are probably only a couple of sites that I would trust reviews for power supplies from, and that's because they really torture them and one is JonnyGuru. Just ignore the aesthetic rating, give functionality some consideration, and pay attention to performance and value, and you will generally do alright. Here's a review that gets a CoolerMaster power supply a recommended rating, but when they did the old Thermaltake toughpower it got a 9.5 out of 10.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=141

Not many score 10 because of aesthetics but here's one that made a 10 on performance and that along with value are the most important factors.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=142

So what about a decent 450Watt power supply? Apparently Siverstone makes one.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=129


The problem with this thread is that many of us are coming to school with our designer label clothing and $200 Jordan's and then recommending it to everyone that we can. Most moderate enthusiasts don't want to spend or just can afford a pair of $200 Jordan's, and why should they if a $35 pair of Nike's will do? We're here to help people get what they want not what we want or want them to have. When we start doing that in the middle of a pissing contest then we are no longer helping anyone.

 

With careful wording I think you covered the issue pretty well here Sophy but you have to remember in any PISSING contest the contestants will always get something on themselves. I enjoy both members in this, even like them but they're NOT taking into consideration the rest of the members/people that visit this thread. OF course a PM war would have been better and prolly saved me many minutes of reading and some laughing but hey it's a free world right?? lol.

Guys (Russ and Sammy) just agree to disagree and go on.... Sammy NO need to leave as I think you bring something to the table as I've told you before I believe. Russ.. quit being so PIG HEADED and ignore people sometimes. ROFL.

Well I'm off to wait for the next PISSING contest.

...the GM