The Official PC building thread -3rd Edition

The Toughpowers are very capable, but god they make an ugly noise.

I'm quite fond of SPCR for reviews, as they're very strict on noise which I care about, but they are also one of the few sites that test PSUs with a full wattage loadbank, not just in a PC that barely uses any power.
The Earthwatts units are excellent, I have one in my server, and would recommend it any day of the week over the Thermaltake and Coolermaster tat that Russ recommends. Even the 80mm version is very quiet and cool BECAUSE it's very efficient. It also cost me £32, barely more than a third what an HX 520W now costs. Designer label? hardly.
I inherently trust PSUs that are as powerful as the wattage label says. I inherently distrust ones that do not. A single 17A 12V rail or a pair of 14A rails with 20A combined does not justify a 430W or 500W PSU respectively.

The Antec CP units are vast, I didn't realise just how big they were. They look quite neat, but I'm willing to bet they're not at all quiet, a PSU that large could be so much better designed for cooling.

 

I don't know which toughpower you tried but the one that I have is as silent a power supply as exists with 16db at 1300 RPMs on a 140MM fan. I suspect that when its running hot it will go higher than that but I've had it for over three years and I haven't been offended by noise once in that time .

I've read Silent PC reviews many times and I pay attention to their noise reviews. I can however push a system to its limits and value performance over a couple of dbs of noise. Silent PC just don't slam it as hard as JonnyGURU does in their tests. I want them beat it up, to monitor temperatures, and to overload it until it shuts down.

I'm fixing a work friends eMachine which is what most people perceive along with their Dells and HPs as commonly purchased PCs, and it has a 250W generic power supply. It's getting rather long in the tooth since it has a 2.8 GHz Northwood processor, but she's happy with it. I replaced it with another 450W generic power supply that will probably last until the machine is useless.

Did you ask Russ if he was happy with his 430watt power supply? He has to live with it and you don't. Russ is not a gamer and a single 17A 12V rail is rated for about 204Watts. This means that all he needs is a little more than 61W idle to 110w loaded to run a single HD4850 or 70W to 130W for a single HD4870 with a little headroom leftover which is as much as he will ever use even if he experiences a second childhood. Which I think might be happening now.

I do play the odd game but I will never run more than a single card because I have yet to find a game that I like that a good single card won't run. The GTX260 that I have uses 65W-136W.

Sam quiet is good but remember that a 2db gain is the softest gain audible to the human ear.

It's all about what ones expectations and needs are. You keep doing exactly what you're doing because that's what makes you feel satisfied, and Russ will no doubt keep on doing as he does because that's what satisfies him. I will however keep on doing what I'm doing just irritate Donald.

Listen to what people want then see if it will work, and if it does then do your best to help them achieve it. Even give them a little more than what they want if it's in their price range. This thread probably scares the hell out of a first or even second time builder, annoys longtime experienced builders to the point of keeping them away.

 

That's a Thermaltake 16dB. Even Russ will tell you how ridiculously inaccurate Thermaltake's dB measurements are. As it happens, they idle around 1100rpm, but it's around 27-30dB. under load, mine went straight to max at 1900rpm, around 45dB.

Remember Soph that Russ runs an X2 7750, one of the least power efficient CPUs out there, that uses a hefty chunk of watts, having an integrated GPU (albeit disabled) on the northbridge in conjunction won't help matters either. I'm not saying he'll run into trouble with power, but the Tt 430W is really only a 300W box, 200 on the 12V the other 100-120 or so on the rest. Similar systems don't have much upgrade potential before they're at risk with that PSU. The CM 500 is better, but again, is still 350W tops.

 

Now how is Thermaltake's db any different than anyone other manufacturer's. Even if the point of measure was different it would only vary by about plus or minus 3db. When I purchased the unit 3 years ago I read more than one review that gave it a silent rating, but if that's not enough then you can take my word for it. This unit is very quiet.

In regards to discussing Russ' Power Supply. I would never buy it because it is a very inefficient unit and it would die on any one of my systems, but it is probably OK for Russ. The X2 7750 isn't nearly as power hungry as you make it. In my analogy I was suggesting that it would run an HD 4850 and I stand by that, although Russ would never purchase a video card of that high standard.


Image below is from an Extreme overclocking review (very trusted site in my view), and they have an entire system built on it maxed out to 207 watts with an HD 4850. I will also confess that I knew that before I did the analogy just see your response, and it was as I expected. Now even a crappy power supply like Russ' (sorry Russ but it is rather chintzy) can comfortably run it. But wait stop there's more! The day Russ purchases a video card the quality of of an HD 4850 hell will actually freeze over. Russ is unlikely to upgrade his system much and he is more likely to get a lower end Nvidia card since that's usually his video card preference. The 9600GT 512Mb which you seem to be found of recommending under load only uses 61W which is a further power reduction of 49W. His system will do it. Now let me ask you a question. How likely is it that Russ will even purchase a card to the quality of the 9600GT?






http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/reviews/processors/AMD_Athlon_X2_7750_BE_2.html

 

Because they test from a different distance, I think they use about 20m. I had a 21dB Thermaltake case fan, it was louder than a 36dB Antec, and so it should be for 2000rpm 120mm. Thermaltake just put the specs down wrong, as do SilenX, give the conditions of sound testing, they can get away with lying about that without getting busted for false advertising, they can't misreport airflow or speed, so they go with silence as the weapon of choice to get people to buy their fans.
I read some reviews of the Toughpower 750W that called it quiet too, but frankly, it was terrible, and anyone who's anyone on SPCR agreed. It was a great PSU, but noisy as sin.

That's my point. It suits him, it does not suit everyone.
I think the 430W unit would run that, as even with the high power consumption of the 7750 (no higher than Athlon X2s of old, but a full double what it's rival the E5200 uses) and the HD4850, you're looking at less than 300W load. It'd run very hot and very loud though I expect, and may not last, depending on how well it's made. I'll have to take a look at one myself to judge that.
I'm highly doubtful the 9600GT only uses 61W, but I will see, as one of my friends is considering getting one.
Fact is though, Russ won't be buying a card of that caliber, and as such he can get away with his PSU fine. You see my point though right, it works, but it isn't a good PSU by any means. Passing it off to others as such is mislabelling it.


Pics haven't worked btw.

 

Sophocles,
I would like to clear something up

I don't know where that model 430w Thermaltake came from, because I've never owned one or ever seen one. The model I have in Oxi is a W0093RU 500w PSU. I also had one in my E6750 that I've been using ever since the cheapie Powmax Black Chrome failed in my Pentium D-940. I've also used a number of them for Customer Builds, and to date, not one single failure of any kind! It has a 5 year warranty!

Thermaltake W0093RU 500W ATX 12V 2.0 Version Passive PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153028

The CoolerMaster I'm now using is the 500w unit listed below. It has two 18A rails on the +12v, 25A on the +5v and 22A on the +3.3v, and the voltage regulation is superb, an area that CoolerMaster has been noted for being deficient in, in the past. It runs very cool and extremely quiet. I've taken it apart and looked over the design and quality of the components used in it's construction, and I'm more than impressed with the quality I see inside it. I was equally impressed with the inner workings of the RS-460-PCAR-A3 460w PSU that came with my RC-534-KKRB Centurion case, which I sold to a friend and replaced in my rig with the one below.

COOLER MASTER eXtreme Power Plus RS-500-PCAR-A3 500W ATX12V V2.3 Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171031

Both PSU's are well made, from better than average components and work quite well. When the thermaltake W0093RU is on sale for $39.99, it's a good buy if it suits your needs. When it's not on sale, there are better ones available that offer more for the same money! At $49.99, the CoolerMaster is a decent buy. At it's $39.99 sale price, I consider it an outstanding buy, again, if it suits the needs of your build or current rig. It's currently my PSU of choice for my Customer builds. The warranty is only 2 years, but since it's available almost all the time for $39.99 it's still an outstanding buy!

BTW! If I haven't thanked you for the compliment on my choice of case, Thank You! I've found it to be an extremely good case with a lot of features that many more expensive cases don't offer. The tooless part works quite well, although I still prefer to secure my video card the conventional way. I just feel that it eliminates any possible strain on the PCI-E slot. The front panel wiring is also top notch, with color coded dedicated plugs for the USB, 1394 F/W and the front audio. No more fighting a war with all those 1 wire square plugs on the ends of the case wiring. If someone can't wire the front panel using this case in less than a minute or so, perhaps they ought not be building a computer in the first place! LOL!! The case itself is attractive. In fact even more so since I added the Kama Bay fan, which compliments the already good looks perfectly. It's well made and well thought out, and for the sale price of $79.99, complete with a Decent quality 460w PSU, it's a very smart buy!

Best Regards,
Russ

 

The 430W unit was suggested by someone else, not you, but I'm pretty sure you picked up on it somewhere down the line.
What you haven't spotted about the 12V rails on your favourite PSUs is the TOTAL 12V limit. With lower end PSUs the rails are only usually limited independently, not in total as well. You tend to see that with 4+ rail PSUs like higher end ones. Ultimately, the 12V rail total for a PSU should add up to at least 80% of its maximum output, preferably near 100. That way it will deliver the goods no matter how imbalanced the system.
You'll notice the Thermaltake has very weak rails, 14A and 15A, totalling only 348W on the 12V. The coolermaster may have 18+18, but overall is limited to 30A or 360W. Too low for it to be a 500W PSU.
Taking a look at some genuine PSUs, even the Corsair VX 450W is limited to 396W, 3 amps above the coolermaster and 4 above the Thermaltake. There's also no worry about maxing the weak 14A primary on the Thermaltake. The HX 520W is even more powerful at 18+18+18, total 40A. Almost the same total wattage figure, yet 35% more powerful on the 12V rail. This unit can definitely do 500W, I pushed it almost that far myself.
How about Seasonic? They do a nice cheap $65 500W unit. 17+17, and no overall limit, 34 amps, or 408W on tap. Plenty of power there as well.

Short answer, neither of those PSUs are as powerful as they say they are, and won't do what they say they will. That, as anyone can guess with PSUs, is a bad sign. With the pile of turd that is the budget PSU market, better than average components is frankly not even good enough, they have to be exemplary. I trust Seasonic, Corsair, Silverstone, Zalman and Antec (Seasonic OEMs) to do that. I do not trust Tt and CM to do it, as it is well known they do not build components to the same standard as other manufacturers. That's even evident with their cases. You can do a hell of a lot worse than a Coolermaster or Thermaltake case, but ultimately, they aren't made with high grade materials, I can bend the side panel of my HAF with pliers like it was butter, and had to in order for it to fit. The case is nice and all, but you get what you pay for, CM and Tt stuff (excluding perhaps the Cosmos and Stacker series) is cheap for a reason.
Front panel wiring hasn't been done in single connectors for years, every case I've even seen, less built in has used blocks for years.

 

Sophocles,
Funny you should mention that particular model video card, as my AMD was planed from the start, with this card in mind.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127401
I had planned to upgrade the PSU to the 500w W0093RU when I bought it. Now I already have the CoolerMaster 500w, so I'm ready for the MSI! Thank you for validating my exact thoughts on the power required to do the job!

Best Regards,
Russ

 

I'd recommend you try and hook that fan up to a controller, perhaps you can mod in another one on your FM121 bracket. Perma-Full speed graphics cards aren't nice unless they use quiet fans. It doesn't look like that's the case with this MSI.

 

Sam,
I'm well aware of the fan noise, and plan to change the fan to one of these.

Evercool
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835119040

StarTech
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835230008

A 70mm fan screws right into the same holes as the fan that comes on the card. If you want to get fancy, you can even add a proper range thermister, and it will adjust the speed itself. I've already done two of these, 1 with each fan listed, and so far I think the Evercool is quieter and does a better job than the StarTech!

Russ

 

Hey don't blame me I was just following Sam's lead.

Hmm, two 18A Rails would require at least 432 watts of power but the coolermaster only has 360W across both 18A rails which means they are actually two 15A rails, but more than enough for your needs.

I was never pissed off at anyone. I just figured I'd side track Russ and Sam to put an end to the tussle. I'd say that it worked quite well. Before long they'll both get warm and fuzzy and then start tossing each other cyber kisses before consummating their relationship by powering up a perfect power supply agreement.;>)

 

Nice idea, I never considered that actually (the 70mm fan not the kiss and make up haha).

 

sorta a new build:
C2Q Q9650 (coming in next week)
DFI x48 mobo (a week old)

everything else is old...
500 in raid 0
and another 500 as a backup
4gigs ddr2 ram
coolermaster mystique 632s case
zalman cnps 9700 cpu cooler
geforce 8800gts gpu (i dont game anymore)

 

How much did you pay for your Q9650? They're so cheap now I almost wish I'd waited.

 

$135 + tax (free shipping from intel)
they still need to ship out and they are really slow with shipping stuff out so i will probably get it in 1-2 weeks, but nonetheless a good deal

how much did you get yours for?

-im1992

 

$135 for a Q9650? Please tell me you're joking. They're £270 here ($390, $340 pre-tax) but used to be £400.

 

im1992


Where did you purchase a Q9650 for $135? Please leave a link.


I would also suggest that you recheck that order to insure that you accidentally didn't order an AMD Phenom 9650 which is priced about $130-$135 depending on where you ordered from.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103288

 

wow i miss alot when im working..lol

yea i want a $135 Q9650 as well.

ok uys i talked to gigabyte yesterday. they have shipped me a new GA-EP45-DS3R. the southbridge was shot on my board and they think it might have been from the time i bought it.. they tested the one they sent me out yesterday, all is well with it. i should have it by wednesday.... so maybe with any luck i can squeeze out the Q9550 to put on it.....