The Official PC building thread - 4th Edition

Harvardguy says:"So, again, why do you guys think that Russ bought Enterprise drives?" Simple, because that's what WD calls them!

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2410273,00.asp

Best Regards,
Russ

 

That's how I recall it too I just wasn't going to point it out.

 

Mr-Movies,

I've heard of AOpen, but I've never seen one. The fire preceded the purchase of the Asrock Motherboard. Different PSU and motherboard.

Best Regards,
Russ

 

I hate to disagree but like Sam I recall it was a PSU not a motherboard and it sure seems odd that we would both get it wrong....

 

Mr-Movies,

I swear, this is the last time I'll ever update a previous post with information that led to the failure. I thought it would be interesting to demonstrate why it burned up in the first place, since Asrock was kind enough to provide information showing that the actual rating on the VRMs, was well below spec, when tested. The bottom line is that he didn't have enough power to begin with, and burned up the computer.

Best Regards,
Russ

 

So it was still the the PSU at fault....

Like I said I have 3 ASRock boards that have been running since 2007-8 and had a forth that my sister has that have never had a major failure to this day. I'm 100% with ASRock with the only exception to compatibility issues with removable drives. Of course my power supplies are adequate so I'm not pushing my luck. Also I wouldn't put an electrical device near flammable drapes either. LOL

Just given you a hard time Russ,
Stevo

 

I don't mean to be rude, but it was definitely the PSU. It wouldn't ordinarily matter but a brand is being attributed to a major failure (safety hazard, even) on a widely viewed public forum for a fault that occurred in a different component. That's pretty unfair, even if I'm not an ASRock fan myself.
As quite a vivid story I remember the detail (the story may even have originally been on DVDHounds I'm not sure, so I don't know how many others here would know it, but it may well have been repeated since) but you even remarked that the system was still on with the PSU on fire, when you would have expected such a failing to switch off the system, due to where the fault was located. Also, if the fire had been on the motherboard, it would have had to be quite serious to escape the case at right angles and reach drapes behind (which would not be immediately touching the rear fan exhaust anyway), whereas the story told, where the fire came out the rear fan on the PSU into the drapes behind, is very plausible.
It was also your machine, not someone else's.

Motherboard fires do happen I'm sure, but please don't see this as some petty correction of insignificant information. Attributing ASRock to the fire is a pretty major allegation.


Rich - I believe the larger WD Green drives also support the spindle on both sides (although that may have been past models, not sure) but you're right about the URE being 1/10 of that with consumer grade drives - it's 1x10^15 for enterprise, which makes them a lot more viable for bulk data storage in RAID, at least for now.

 

Sam,

Not to be picky, but please assume nothing! You're making me look bad here! LOL!!

I have no idea where you got the idea that it was my computer, because it belonged to my landlord, Andrew! I also did not accuse Asrock of anything, but just reported their findings of my request to examine the motherboard to see if anything went wrong there, and it had! I also pointed out that the PSU at 350w, was way too overloaded by too much hardware for the PSU to support I didn't even ask for a new one, the final time I went there. I appreciated their candor in what they wrote, in fact they even thanked me for discovering the problem. They did send me a new replacement motherboard.

Best Regards,
Russ

 

It's surprisingly difficult to overload a 350W PSU with your average system, even with a high-end CPU. In a high load situation (100% load but not a burn test), even an overclocked and overvolted Q9550 and an HD4870X2 (286W TDP) was only able to pull 390-400W from the wall. Back in those days, that sort of power draw was unheard of too.

 

Oman7,

Here's a link to the GigaByte GA-990FXA-UD3, for only a dollar more than the RA!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128514

Best Regards,
Russ

 

I wanna build so bad...

 

I need to do a build at some point to get a PC light enough to take to LANs again.. At the moment though, it just seems like effort :/

 

Although I generally agree with that Sam there is a flaw in the ointment and that is heat. If you have a faulty component or you are pushing your equipment you can generate heat and everything goes out of wack exponentially fast when heat is involved. So under good conditions you are 100% correct but with faulty gear or pushing something too hard all bets are off.

Also burn-in tests are a joke and I can overheat a PC much faster using other apps & tools. I haven't wasted my time with a burn-in tool for probably 20 years with exception to some young kids I worked with that thought they meant something. I did prove them wrong in the long term fortunately.

However I do TOTALLY remember the story Russ gave exactly as you state it and not as Russ has recently recalled it. Sorry Russ about that, old age is a b*tch... LOL

 

Don't have to be old. I have trouble recalling certain things some times. Selective memory :S Thankfully, I seem to have an aptitude for PC related stuff

I once heard that Einstein was forgetful about some things, and that he couldn't tie a Tie!

 

Well, I never heard the fire story, but per Sam and Steve it seems like it's shaping up to be more the fault of the PSU than the Asrock. I have heard lots of PSU fire stories - even Sam has one as I recall.

I don't think anybody is making anybody else look bad - nobody's memory is perfect - but I agree that this forum needs to give out accurate information. So in the spirit of upholding the integrity of the forum information, I am still not quite done with this Enterprise drive versus desktop drive discussion.

Well, Russ, I don't mean to quibble, but unless a drive specifically says it's an enterprise drive, I don't believe it IS an enterprise drive.

You presented the drive, and in fact you yourself did not mention that it was an enterprise. You didn't use that word. But everybody else did. And I am wondering why.

I am referring to your post on page 215, post 5358.

In that post, your original newegg link on page 215, pulled up this drive:

Western Digital WD Black WD5003AZEX 500GB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive, which is now priced at $94.99.

NOT enterprise. Not as far as I can tell. It's a caviar black, and it is NOT an enterprise drive. Right?

But, in searching newegg for enterprise drives, I did pull up this one

Western Digital WD RE4 WD2503ABYX 250GB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Enterprise Hard Drive -Bare Drive. which clearly is labelled as an enterprise drive, for $94, but it's not 500 GB, only 250GB.

The Western Digital link you quoted above confuses me even more, Russ, because the smallest drive in that list of enterprise drives, is 1TB, at $139, and newegg does not carry it, the WD1001FYYG, and it is certainly not the drive you bought. The drive you bought, the WD5003AZEX, is not on that list of WD drives that you linked to - so what was the purpose of that link? I don't get it.

I respect you immensely, and my question was not even directed to you - it was directed to everybody who commented on your drive, and who used the word enterprise, which you did not use.

Because I think we can all agree that we can't be putting out false information on this thread, telling people they are getting Enterprise drives, when the word Enterprise has a very specific meaning, and includes a set of standards that desktop drives do not adhere to. As Sam mentioned above, Enterprise drives indeed have 1/10 the non-recoverable error rate of desktop drives. That's pretty significant - 10 times more reliable in that regard. I would call that significant.

Is anybody aware that non-recoverable errors can come from cosmic rays, and used to be much more of a problem until substrate materials were changed? One of the reasons that the non-recoverable error rate is significant, is Raid array rebuild time with very large drives, Raid 5 in particular. That is why Raid 6 has become so popular, permitting the failure of two drives. If you have one non-recoverable error pop up during rebuild on Raid 5, which only permits one bad drive, you are screwed - you cannot rebuild the failed drive, so your entire Raid 5 array is junk. Raid 6 permits one non-recoverable error during Raid array rebuild. And you are 10 times less likely to have a non-recoverable error pop up if you are using enterprise drives in your Raid array.

That is VERY SIGNIFICANT in business applications.

So again, this question is directed to everybody else besides Russ,

............why did you guys comment on Russ' drives, calling them Enterprise drives? If you didn't really mean to use the term, then I think it would be prudent to refrain from using that term, as it has a very specific and important meaning, and those drives are more expensive than desktop drives.

To summarize, since Russ linked above to Western Digital, here's some more WD information from this forum:

I do not pretend to understand that whole discussion, but to me that clearly says that Caviar Black, and Enterprise, are two different things.

LOL

Rich

 

Rich,

You might want to turn your hearing aid up a bit then, because it's clearly singing the wrong song! I called WD late yesterday afternoon. The key is the 5 year warranty. Only Enterprise drives get 5 years. Even the Red drive you were talking about before, only has a 3 year warranty, and the Blue drives are 2 years. Veloceraptors and Scorpio 2.5" Black drives are also enterprise drives.

Russ

 

I don't know if Rich mentioned the Red drive, but I did. I'm rather curious about it. Just haven't had time to check it out. What exactly justifies the premium price?!

 

Oman7,

I think it's the rarity of premium drives, combined with the higher cost of low manufacturing numbers. I don't know anyone here who would fork out around $600 for a 4TB drive, Enterprise or not! I know I wouldn't!

Russ

 

Better quality higher performance for Enterprise drives or other specialty drives. Also they are designed for 24/7 use in RAID or VIDEO systems which is suppose to void the warranty on other drives if they fail and they have been used for constant use. I'm not sure the manufactures enforce that these days though but they can.

Also WD Blue drives come with a 3 year warranty not 2 year, at least all of the ones I have do.

RED DRIVES:
WD Red hard drives are designed and tested for compatibility in the unique 24x7 operating environment and demanding system requirements of home and small office NAS. With exclusive NASware technology built in, WD Red hard drive improves NAS storage performance by reducing common hard drive concerns in NAS systems including concerns for things like integration, upgradeability, reliability and cost of ownership that are experienced with a hard drive designed for desktop computers.

 

Kevin, here's an interesting link, with a Western Digital demonstration of some of the engineering features that distinguish enterprise drives from desktop drives, and might answer your question on "why the premium price."

The key is in the engineering, not in the warranty.

As Steve said:

That is an accurate, powerful description, in a short sentence. Thanks for the clarification Steve.

And notice what Steve said about warranties. Warranties can be voided.

I can get a 5 year warranty on a desktop drive, perhaps. Maybe I can get a 10 year warranty. Does that mean I should throw it into my Raid 6 on-line-store 24/7 server? Probably not. It isn't an enterprise drive, no matter what length of warranty it has.

I wonder who picked up the phone over there late yesterday at WD? Was it the head of engineering, or was it a call center in India?

If I throw the desktop drive, with the 5 or 10 year warranty, into my on-line store server, what do I do if I lose all my critical data and about $50,000 worth of orders, causing my business to face bankruptcy? Ask WD to replace the drives? Okay, they send me $1000 for the drives. Great. That gives me a little extra money to pay the bankruptcy attorney.

Read the fine print on those warranties - does anybody have a blind faith in warranties, and makes their buying decisions based on them? I wouldn't recommend that approach.

I bought two enterprise drives last year. Price wasn't bad, $120 each for 1TB. I have no idea what the warranty was. I never looked. I still don't know. I had to return the original two using newegg's 30 day return. I had ruined them through a faulty Power over Esata card that I also bought from newegg, which didn't properly regulate 5 volt power from the floppy power connector to the add-on card. You could run one drive, in power over esata mode (bare drive sitting on case, with a connector that supplies sata logic and sata power) without a problem. When you tried to run two drives you got intermittent problems - the 5 volt current was limited passing through the add-on card, and therefore the logic board of the hard drives, including the imbedded processors, was starved for 5 volt power. What a mess!

The bad drives developed a non-zero pending sector count, per the SMART data, (self monitoring and reporting technology) which is a major red flag. Eventually in more testing, that pending sector count eventually reduced to zero, but my suspicions had been raised. In further testing, while the drives appeared to be functioning correctly, both original drives eventually failed the WD Lifeguard thorough testing and recovery program.

So I rma'd them, and figured out the source of the problem before I ruined the replacement drives.

I did more reading and research of hard drives and SMART data than at any time in my life. I even rewrote one section of the wikipedia article on SMART when I noticed a seemingly self-contradicting sentence regarding pending sector count, and realized that the source notation from the company that makes Acronis clone software, correctly stated the situation, whereas the author hadn't quite gotten it right. (They didn't rewrite my edit - that's how the article now reads, lol.)

Anyway, the 5 volt problem disappeared when I attached the optional usb power connector to the mating motherboard port - THAT 5 volts was steady, and passing through the Power over Esata card, it was a sure source of 5 volts that was able to properly service two hard drives, in a Raid 0 or Raid 1 array. (The 3.5" drives pull 5 volts for logic, and 12 volts for the spindle motor, whereas 2.5" drives need only 5 volts for the spindle motor.) In my newegg review of the add-on card, which I bought two more of later for other machines, I detailed the situation for any further unsuspecting buyers, while still giving the board 5 eggs. I put the card into a computer that did not have the usb port on the motherboard, and so the floppy power is the only source of 5 volts. Needless to say, I will never attempt to run two hard drives in "power over esata" mode at the same time - but one is fine - I use that power over esata adapter cable to test new hard drives without opening the computer case, one at a time.

As per Steve, warranties can be voided. What good is a warranty anyway if my irreplaceable family video and photo collection has been lost? I get my $120 back? Thanks a lot.

Enterprise drives not only have 1/10 the non-recoverable error rate, but they also have a longer MTBF than desktop drives. If you follow the WD link above, which is fascinating, you will learn a lot of information about platter wobble, vibration-correcting sensors, in an interactive 3d model demonstration. The key to whether a drive is enterprise, or not, has nothing to do with the warranty, but everything to do with the engineering.

Rich