The Official PC building thread!

The higher cache chips should clock fine. There isn't any reason why they wouldn't clock similarily.

The actual reason why they don't clock as well, is because all the 1MB L2 cache's belong to toledo cores. Toledo heats up faster. Manchester could use higher cache

 

Question for you all::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

I have a celeron 2.4 Northwood 400 fsb. By increasing the fsb and good cooling I have it up to 2.76 mhz and stable. I had it at 3.2 but it would reboot randomly. I was thinking of maxing out my board going to 3.4 Prescott 1 meg cache 800 fsb. I have the 3200 memory so i am good to go. Will i see a good increase in speed or should I go to a newer motherboard? Its a socket 478.

 

Dude, you should read your own posts. The reason the 512mb L2 cache Manchester cores have a lower transitor count and generate less heat (89 watts) than the Toledo cores is their smaller cache size. L2 cache is static ram which uses lots of energy thus generates heat and heat is the enemy of overclocking.

 

I refer to the execution cores, not the entire chip. Yes L2 cache will cause the chip to heat up, after an instruction is fetched in one cycle, it usually is handled for more than one clock cyle before going back. First off the contol unit get's it, and then when it goes to the ALU, the same instruction can be worked over for more than one tick. While pipelining will have the L2 fethcing again, it get's more "time off" if the ALU has to perform multiple logical operations on it, which it tends to

If L2 cache is included in the transistor count you use in your comparison, for determining the ability of chip to stay cool, and/or overclock, then why can 3.0GHz+ microprocessors for servers have a 4MB L2 cache, and be economical in what it takes to power and cool?

The bigger the cache sizes, the more transistors you have in the overall count, and yes, they will generate heat, but depending on your program those transistors aren't all switching as many times at once, every cycle. The execution core has it's transistors switching constantly, it's not storing instruction like cache.

You get my drift? Anyway, 157 million versus 233 million is how it looks, if you take into account 233 million transistors is 233 million bits, 29 MB in terms of storage, how does 1MB of L2 cache figure into that? How much can that contribute to the chips heat build up?

 

It's not quite that simple though is it?

 

Nothing is simple anymore.

 

I have just read through this thread (phew) and am looking to build my first DIY computer. I have around $800 to spend, and this is what I have found. I realize that the barebones kit isnt really barebones, but as I am new to this, it comes with everything I am pretty sure I need, or already have in my current comp. Please let me know if I can get better processor/mobo/etc for the same/less cost, and better performance. I would be willing to buy the parts separately as long as I still ended up with all necessary cables/grease/mounts (i was told this one came with all this).

Abit Fatal1ty Barebones System (I realize i'm buying into the hype, please correct me and dont flame) CASE/MOBO/CPU/CPU FAN/RAM
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1640126&Sku=A458-1114 A
$513.50 USD incl tax/ship to FL (-120 rebate before halloween=$393.20 USD)

OEM Win XP Home Disk (dont have disk for current computer as current XP version is only on partition on C:\ as recovery drive, comp bought from compusaauctions.com for $380 over a year ago) If you have a solution for this, let me know, the 200GB hard drive is G:\ and not the one loaded with XP, it is an additional drive inside current comp for movie/music storage.
tigerdirect.com
$90

512MB PC4200 (non-ecc) RAM (TOTAL NOW 1GB)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820146368
$45 USD

19" CRT (spare in current comp)

WD 200GB IDE Hard drive (spare in current comp)
$0.00

DVD Burner (spare in current computer)
$0.00

At this point, I believe the only other things I NEED are a video card (looking to spend ~$200 USD) and intake/exhaust fans. Any suggestions/help/hey you forgot this messages would be much appreciated. Tiger direct said everything needed to assemble the kit would be included, have you found this to be true? Please make sure both of my current drives (hdd and dvd) will work on this system also, I believe they are both IDE (they are in a HP 514N currently) [bold]You guys rock, I've used afterdawn for other forum topics as well, and always love the advice/community [/bold](but keep the arguments about who did what in PM or something).

Oh, and I am currently upgrading from my comp to play Battlefield 2 better, as I have to play at lowest settings
HP 514N 2.2Ghz
768MB pc2100 RAM
GeForce FX5200 256MB PCI (no agp slot on comp)
250GB storage (+10GB for XP recovery partition)
DVD/CD burner

I guess even without the extra 200GB hard drive and the original CD burner DVD player back in it, I could still sell it for a few hundred to someone wanting a computer for their kid for xmas. Lucky thinking I know.

Thanks in advance


Total cost $728.50 +fans and whatever I forgot and with -120 for tiger direct rebates

 

The Graphics card is what will see most of that upgrade. The FX5200 is a relatively slow card, and it being PCI makes things worse. for Under $200 i guess you'll probably be looking at something in the X800 family. I'd steer clear of the 6600 series and the base level 6800 if you play very high resolutions on that CRT monitor,since they don't play well, but at 1280x1024 they're fine.


At newegg, an X800GTO is $172, that's a pretty good card (almost as fast as mine actually, which i paid £292 for!)
You can pick up a slightly less capable 6600GT for $145 or a standard X800GT for $139, these being PCI express of course.

There shouldn't be any compatibility problem with your disk drives in that system as they are both IDE, which all motherboards have.

 

I guess technically I could spend up to $220 on the card, if that extra $50 will get me anything better than the x800GTO (not saying I dont like the card, but better is better!) What do you think?

 

Hey Hey Hey, slow down, I have a 5200 in my desktop man, don't beat it down. Lol, I don't game, I know, at least it not integrated. I have a ATI200Xpress in my laptop which has never had a game run on it yet. I just do Socom 3 on Ps2, and that's it, only game I own.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1822644,00.asp

Anyway, take that link to heart, you don't have to do the exact PC but it is your exact price range, just you'll be saving some money using previous parts, so just bumb up the graphics accordingly.

 

Well, thanks for the article, I hadnt seen that one before. Unfortunately, its from June 4 months ago, which as we all know, might as well be 4 years ago. I'm also not happy that on almost every part, they say "which you will need to upgrade later on". I realize that this is the case with ALL computer parts, but want to ensure I buy something that is at least up to date with current prices/etc, and frankly, I dont know the difference between sortof good and actually good pc components (mobo/cpu/gfx card). Basically, I'm looking for someone to do the work for me, and tell me the best components I can buy that will work together for a gaming machine (BF2 right now) within my budget. If anyone can do this, I'd be deeply indebted, and will try to repay the favor any way I can. (I'm in Florida, anyone need a vacation?, lol) Actually, if someone just wants to check that list and give updated info on better parts with prices (minus hard drive, monitor, dvd burner, keyboard, mouse) that would be great.

Also, I just checked and at tigerdirect, the fatal1ty mobo and 2.8ghz processor alone are $295, while I would be getting a faster 3.0ghz processor, cpu fan, 512MB RAM, PSU, and a cool looking case for just $20 more! Please help me decide what to do!!!

 

They do it once a year, it's not old, and none of those components will be outdated for awhile. Just for clarification. Extreme tech is always up to date, when it says June 2005, it's june 2005. ET is #1 for everything with a semiconductor at it's heart.

 

Ok, so I guess I dont really need a new flashy case, maybe I can spend the $$ i save on using my case to get a better processor or something. My system currently has a uATX (ultra atx?) mobo in it, so the new one would have to match that. After that, I should only need the following parts, tell me what you would do if you needed this stuff and had $800.

PSU
CPU
MOBO (onboard lan and sound, not video)
GFX card
RAM
WinXP home

for $800

 

Umm, that link is genuinely your situation, but if you don't want to go with it, then keep in mind a couple things.

Your objective is clearly gaming, if you rforemost *CPU intensive* priority is not gaming, then let me know. Therefore, you definitely need to stick with AMD, get a AMD Athlon 64 3400+ or something around that depending on your price ratio to other components.

Mobo is defintiely a wide area, just get one with integrated LAN, sound, USB, and PCI-E for your graphics card, don't go with anythign but PCI-E, Get a solid Asus board that meets those requirments at the least. Asus is the best in my opinion.

Video card? Hmmmm, at $800 it's tough, but I think you'd be satisfied with a version of the 6600, I'm not a hard core gamer, so I don't kneel before ATI and kiss their "dark" and Alienware supported ass. Nvidia's chipsets rule, and I would buy nothing else, so therefore, get a MOBO w/nvidia chipset and pair it with a 6600 PCI-E. It's all about how much you want to spend, 68000 would be pushing it.

RAM, on a budget it's down to 1GB of Kingston valueram, DDR400. 1 pair of 512s, matching.

XP home, i'd take the extra stretch and save for a week to get pro, seriously, pro is just so much better, especially dealing with networking etc.

For your PSU, get a case with a 400W or more integrated one.

 

OH NO!!!!
HE FELL INTO THE TRAP!!!

The X200 is actually a motherboard chipset dude, not a graphics card.
Loads of people make that mistake. You'll find you have integrated graphics.
[This section for the eyes of cmmnsense/Reasons?]
"Nvidia's chipsets rule" - sounds bad but at least you have a point
"I'm not a hard core gamer, so I don't kneel before ATI and kiss their "dark" and Alienware supported ass" - Complete and absolute garbage.
I've never heard such rubbish since ever. I think you'll find Alienware currently even favour nVidia due to SLi. ATi produce some cards of REASONABLE performance at a reasonable price. Where this alienware supported tat comes from is beyond me.

[back to foofdawg]
A 6600 will serve you fine, but you can get better for your $220 budget than that. an X800 will sit in the right price area. I couldn't find a 6800 that fit your initial requirement.

OK, so I support ATi, but really in this range i think the X800 is worth it.

 

My chipset is the ATI Radeon RS480, and my graphics processor is the ATI Radeon XPRESS 200M, The M stands for Mobility. It is an IGP that shares 128MB of your RAM by default, but can be adjusted to 32MB or 64MB also. Because I don't game I have it at 64MB.

Furthermore, what in all hell are you talking about? I don't want to be haughty or anything but when I say my graphics card* is something... it is. *And when your dealing with a laptop you usually don't have to specify that it is an IGP and you usually can just say graphics card because it makes forum talk simpler. I can see why you would mistake it as a chipset, and yes some would say not to call it a "card" because it is intergrated. Same diff to me cause it's a decent one from ATI not POS.

Hmmmm, I won't argue about ATI v. Nvidia, I'll let assumptions be made as who would know.

*****Yes my laptop is ATI, I know, wasn't my choice, I had no other option if I wanted this exact model with a Turion. Since it isn't for games, I can forget what's running on it. It is an IGP, I would have a DGPU in a laptop if I wanted serious mobile gaming.

 

I don't like to continuously argue, but the GPU is the X200M. The chipset is the XPRESS 200. I agree that it's confusing.

I don't see what's wrong with the X200 though, it's far better than 32MB integrated SiS graphics. OK, It's not going to play Doom 3 at 1600x1200, but for a basic integrated chipset, you shouldn't knock it.

 

Yeah if you go to ATI.com they will specify the chipset as the xpress 200, but that's marketing for the average consumer, I assumed you knew above that. They combine the chipset and IGP and define it as just "chipset" and take the prettier name for it, which is xpress. If you search ATI.com for RS480, you get result that will list model number as that with a suffix, and display the chiset as the X200M.

I wish I could put a screenshot up of PC Wizard 2005 on my comp. It would clarify things alot better. X200M is an IGP, integrated, like the chipset, and it similar to the chipset, but is not it. The RS480 is the chipset by computer science terms, not marketing, and the X200M is a different component integrated into the motherboard, just like the chipset.

I'll kinda restate that in summation, X200M, because it is an IGP, and the chipset being a bland RS, and nothign special are termed into one to sound good. If you can find someone with a computer with an IGP, run PC Wizard 2005, and your "Video" will list what was advertised as the chipset (If a laptop with IGP) and "Chipset" will list soomethign you never saw advertised or ever heard of. On a desktop or laptop mobos with a discreet GPU, the chipset will be much better/expensive, and will be advertised supporting the GPU.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but in this case, the IGP could be on the same die as the chipset, and would further explain why it is advertised that way. But they perform separate functions, the GPU IGP etc. works through the chipset.

In a desktop the GPU is usually APG or PCI-E, and is therefore supported by a powerful chipset, a marketed one like the nforce 4, and then they specify each.

What the average consumer sees is technically a lie, but not really in so many, many, many cases in computer hardware. Intel would break if the average consumer could come up to them and ask them what the hell they were thinking with pentium 4, and then answer their own question by slapping intel for thinking they would make 10GHz and the 20-22 stage cores would sweep AMD, and AMD would have to re-invent their 11 stage cores, after that thermal barrier was broken. WHy do you think Intel is slowly and confidencially bringing is M and D, and letting pentium 4 dissapear on it's own. They are emabarrased. This is just an overly long example of how a CS degree sees things differently than a consumer. And this CHipset/IGP thing is another one, I might now scite someday on another topic relating to the blindfolds in front of 99% of the people i the world.

What a rant eh? I'm not editing that....

 

Isn't that what I said?
The X200 being the IGP and the XPRESS being the chipset?
They can't be one and the same thing, unless the X200 is counted as part of the chipset, which it is, but it isn't all of the chips...
Oh and that rant is so ranty i'm not even reading it, it's too hard to sift through and translate to english.

 

Wow, ok, you didn't catch that, The X200M is the IGP, it stands for Xpress 200 Mobility, that is the IGP. The chipset is the RS480. It's very cut and dried. I explained it, you didn't read it.

Can you put screen shots up on these forums? I'm not very familiar with the screen shot feature, but how do you save it as a picture? I can paste it to a wp, but then i have to save it as .doc If I could I'd like to put up some screen shot sof PC Wizard 2005, and a couple other system analysis programs from my laptop to show you.