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vhs to vcd or svcd or dvd???

Discussion in 'MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 encoding (AVI to DVD)' started by rebelrob, Jan 31, 2005.

  1. waltersbg

    waltersbg Member

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    First of all, for rebelrob: Have you started using DVD+RW's for your testing? I was totally stressing over all of the coasters I was creating while experimenting with various things, so I went and got some DVD+RW's. I found a 10-pack of memorex DVD+RW's for just over a dollar per disk. I know you can get them for less than that, but I wanted to just find some locally without waiting for a sale. That's a lot more per disk than the DVD-R's I was using, but it has been worth it. I just burn and burn and burn without ever worrying about "wasting" a disk. It really makes experimenting a lot more "fun".

    For rebootjim:

    Thanks for the input. I do need to check into different capture software. Windows Movie Maker does not have any DVD-compatible capture options available. It either wants to capture in .wmv format or as a .avi. NeroVision Epxress allows me to capture in various DVD-compatible modes, including 1/4 D1, but it will not allow me to set the bitrate.

    I'm still a little confused as to the best way to get a high-quality .mpg output from the capture/encoding steps. It sounds like, if I really want to do it right, I need to get something like Mainconcepts' product. Short of that, I'm unclear on the advantages/disadvantages/methods for various approaches.

    You said, "You could even use VirtualDub to capture directly to .AVI, but if you haven't the room, you need to use a compression codec, which can totally destroy quality."

    That is one of the parts that confuses me. If I don't have room for .avi (which I don't, considering the number of hours per title), then I MUST put the captured video through a codec, right? Encoding requires a codec, does it not? It seems to me that the only choices I have are exactly which codec I use and whether or not it is built in to the same program that is used for capture.

    If the codec is not built in to the capture program, then it seems to me that I must "frameserve" the captured video to the encoding program on the fly. Otherwise, I'll need room to store the un-encoded capture. In a case like you mention where I capture with Virtualdub and edit the .avi's, I don't really need to "frameserve" the output from Virtualdub to a dedicated encoder do I, since I can just point the encoder to the output .avi from Virtualdub?

    So, that leaves me needing two things:

    1) A capture program which allows me to specify the resolution and bitrate of the captured video

    and

    2) An encoder to convert to mpeg2, DVD-compliant output. If the encoder is not built into the capture program, then I need a capture program which can frameserve to an encoder.

    Is that basically it? If so, do you have any suggestions, in addition to your suggestion of Mainconcepts, for a capture/encode combination which you think can do the job?

    Sorry for the long reply and another long list of questions. I'm sure I'll eventually figure this out. I can easily see why you say that beginners often just give up before they find the right solution.

    Thanks,
    Mike
     
  2. rebelrob

    rebelrob Guest

    I have never purchased the dvd-rw, one because of the cost and two, due to the problems with compatibility in most dvd players. I hear they will not work. But if they work for you, then more power to you. I have been going to Frys to get my dvd-+R Pack of 50 for under $10. I have bought the hp and GQ and they both seem to be the same quality. I have had no problems with them. But thats a whole other forum in itsself about good/bad media.

    I have a winnov capture card. Which is old and does not give me a lot of options. I recently got dvd express from walmart. Its external usb plug in play. comes with a lot of editing software, but I just use the hardware. Not sure if you can change bitrate. I think I can..I will check 2nite and let you know, but it will capture in mpeg 1or2 vcd, svcd and dvd format.
    1. I plug my vcr into dvd express. Play/capture video into mpeg format.
    2. take that captured mpeg, open Nero 6 ultra. Choose what type of disc I want to make.
    3. Create menu/music, captions, titles, etc.
    4 Burn
    5. You got yourself a vcd, svcd or dvd.
    Not much to it.
    I want to try working with DVD Lab Pro, just have not messed with it. That is rebootjims ideal tool.

    As far as Backuping DVD's , reauthoring dvds, shrinking dvds, I have become a whiz at that. Look out BlockBUST.
    As mentioned by rebootjim, DVDshrink, you dont even notice it.

    R
     
  3. rebootjim

    rebootjim Active member

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    This is why I mentioned virtualdub. If you select Video, Compression, and choose a good codec, and set it up right, you can almost keep perfect quality, at a much smaller filesize. DivX is probably the best, but choose a high bitrate in the config tab/button. Virtualdub will use ANY codec you have on your system. If you're not satisfied with what's there already, get something else. I use DivX mpeg-4 Fast motion a LOT.

    If you're going to capture in one software, and encode in another, then yes, capture in virtualdub, and frameserve to encoder. You're better off capturing directly to mpeg-2, as mentioned above, although this can be more difficult to edit. If you NEED lots of editing leeway (not just cutting out commercials), then capture to compressed (DivX) avi, it's just much easier to work with. If you only need to cut ads, then capture to mpeg-2.

    If #1 is captured to mpeg-2, then you don't NEED #2. This has been my point all along. :D
    Personally, I use virtualdub to capture in uncompressed avi, but only because I have terabytes of hard drive space. Choose a codec wisely, then capture, and save it on your hard drive.
    If you already HAVE other good capture software (Pinnacle, Premiere, Ulead) then definitely use that to capture into mpeg-2 if at all possible. Windows movie maker and Nerovision Express are NOT anything I would bother with, not if you want quality output.
    There is another free capture program, called VirtualVCR. Read all about how to use it here: http://www.doom9.org/capture/capturing_VirtualVCR.html
    I still recommend Mainconcept. One of the best mpeg-2 capture software, and encoder all in one. Canopus Procoder if you're going to get the best.
    Other encoders to consider are tmpgenc, and QuEnc. QuEnc is free, and there are 3 or 4 good GUI's for it. It's NOT fast, something you set overnight.
    CCE is arguably the fastest (next to Canopus), but a totally horrible interface/gui.
    Price them out, test the trial downloads, then buy what works best for you.
     
  4. waltersbg

    waltersbg Member

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    rebelrob:

    Yeah, I was avoiding using DVD+RW's for the same reason. I didn't want to pay that much and I thought they may not play in my DVD Player. As it turns out, the ones I'm making play fine in my player and it's just "nice" to not burn coasters. When I perfect something I will, of course, burn in on DVD-R. Did I end up saving money in the long run? Possibly, possibly not. If I do 50 experiments on a single DVD+RW, then probably so. Also, I can use the +RW's for my data backups, unrelated to videos. But, at the price you are paying for DVD-R's, I guess you can burn a lot of coasters without it costing much!

    I am currently following a process similar to yours, except that my capture is done through the camcorder and firewire. Also, Nero 6 is currently producing .vob files that are incompatible with my DVD player (Apex AD-1100W). Theoretically, the engineers at Ahead are looking into it.

    The concern I have in using Nero for the VHS transfers that you and I are discussing with rebootjim is that it is my understanding that Nero will recode whether you want it to or not. Therefore, you could go through all the trouble to get a clean mpeg2 capture of your tapes and then Nero would recode it and you could lose some quality. As I understand Jim, the key is to Author with a program that will only recode if it has to. I'm currently experimenting with some freeware authoring programs.

    As for backups and re-authoring, I am doing fine with that thanks to DVDShrink. I only wish making my own DVDs was going as well!

    Thanks for you input and guidance. Good luck in your endeavors to get VHS transfers working. I'm starting to think that I may need to settle for 2 hours of video per DVD (until the double-layer disks become affordable). That way, I can capture at full D1, which seems to look "pretty good" on my system.

    Later,
    Mike
     
  5. rebelrob

    rebelrob Guest

    Yep, Nero will take over and rebootjim may have something there about the quality being reduced. I have not messed with it enough to find out. I will start playing with Dvd Lab. Im at about 30-40 cents a disc with the dvd-r's.
    As far as your apex not working with the vob or the vob's that nero is creating is strange. Not to knock your dvd player, but apex is considered low quality. I know from experience when I did video over IP and ATM as well as reading sites like these and consumer reports. If you have some extra cash, go to walmart and purchase that sony dvd player for about $80, I forget the model, but its a low profile player. It will play ANYTHING and its a good quality player.

    R
     
  6. rebootjim

    rebootjim Active member

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    Actually, it's usually cheaper players that will play almost everything. I got a Norcent for $39 CDN, and it does everything and then some.

    You're right about the authoring. Nero will (almost) always re-encode the whole thing. A waste of time and quality.
    Get your mpeg encoded to the best possible quality.
    Author it in DVDLab which does NOTHING to the video, ever.
    Shrink with DVD Shrink if needed to fit on dvdr.
    DL stuff is just in it's infancy, and only seems to be compatible with any given player about 30% of the time. Give it a year.

    If you're seriously interested in 5.1 or DTS from stereo, here's how to do it: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=124aa48840e7ee8a42755b77130abbaf&threadid=85446
    You'll need Steinberg Cubase SX Or Nuendo with Plogue Bidule.
    Cubase: $399.99
    Nuendo: $1299.00
    Bidule: $75
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2005
  7. waltersbg

    waltersbg Member

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    rebelrob and rebootjim: Thanks for all your help. I can see that I just need to go try a lot of what you've both told me.

    rebelrob: I realize that my Apex is not the greatest DVD player. However, it works for everything else I do (including playing DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD+RW DVDs which backed up with DVDShrink). I could go buy another one, but I've kind of taken it as a personal challenge to figure out why NeroVision authored DVDs don't work on it while DVDs authored with other programs do. It turns out that it is one very specific field in the "Navigation Packets" of the .vob files that Nero is setting differently than the other authoring programs. This is theoretically a "reserved" field, so it shouldn't matter, but it does. The question that the Ahead engineers are supposed to be looking in to is why they are setting this field the way they are. I can't be the only person in the world with this problem.

    rebootjim: I understand everything you said...almost. :)

    I dig what you've been saying about capturing directly to mpeg2. I'm not TRYING to avoid doing that, I just thought that the reality might be that there are few programs which can do it well. In that case, I might need to get the best capture program and the best encoder and run them separately (although I don't really need .avi files for editing).

    The only thing which has made me start to wonder about the idea of capturing directly to mpeg2 is the realization that doing this requires the encoder to work in real time. I've started to wonder if capturing in .avi (perhaps only 45 minutes or so at a time so I don't fill up my harddrive) and then letting an encoder like TMPGenc or Procoder run for hours on it almost certainly will give a better quality mpeg than an encoder which is trying to run in real time during capture. Doesn't that make sense?

    In your latest response, I'm assuming that the part where you mentioned using a DIVx mpeg4 codec is for getting the best quality on your hard drive, but not necessarily for creating DVDs? As you've mentioned several times, if I want to Author to DVD, I should capture directly (or indirectly) to mpeg2, DVD-compliant, right? Maybe my confusion here is still related to the difference (if any) between the "codec" and the "encoding". In my mind there are the same thing. If I'm encoding to mpeg2, then I must be using some kind of codec to do that.

    I do have a Pinnacle Studio product on one of my PC's that I will try for direct capture to mpeg2. I will also try virtual dub with the various codecs I have available. I will also try capture to .avi and encoding with Tmpgenc or a trial version of Procoder or other high-quality encoder. I will also give the trial version of Mainconcept a try. Ultimately, I will find the one with the best quality and then experiment with usind DVDShrink to see how much I can fit on a single DVD.

    Thanks again to both of you for your time and brain cells.

    Mike
     
  8. rebootjim

    rebootjim Active member

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    Two ways. Mainconcept, or Canopus, which will do both at once, cap and encode, or;
    A hardware mpeg-2 encoder, such as the hauppage DVR-250.
    You then end up with a whole bunch of short clips. It's doable, but a lot of work.
    DivX mpeg4 codec is a type of avi compression. One of the better, but still has quality loss. Raw uncompressed avi, though extremely HUGE file size, has no quality loss. Because mpeg-2 is a different codec/compression, and is dvd standard, you reduce the compression, reduce the number of re-encodes, and maintain quality (see above re: hardware encoders).
    PS is good for capture. Careful with updates. Plenty of crashes for most users, and not reliable. Your mileage may vary.
    If it works for you, it's an excellent choice. If it is unstable, use virtualdub, and a good codec, capture to avi, edit, encode, etc...
     
  9. waltersbg

    waltersbg Member

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    Oh, man! I feel like such a dope!

    I started on my quest last night to figure out the best combination of capture/encoder software and capture/encode resolution and bitrate.

    About half way through the night, I read something that made a big light bulb light up over my head. I AM NOT "CAPTURING" ANYTHING WITH MY SETUP! I am using a Sony Digitial 8 Camcorder. It connects to my Laptop via firewire. When I do a "capture" to the laptop, I am actully just transferring the DV data from the camcorder. If it is data that is on a digital 8 tape in the camcorder, then there is absolutely no "conversion" or "capture" of any kind going on. When I plug my VCR's analog output into the Camcorder and use it to send DV to my laptop, there is an A/D inside that is capturing the analog video and audio and encoding it to DV format, but I have no control over the resolution or bitrate -- it is always in standard 720x480 DV format!

    That explains a few things.

    So, unless I want to buy a capture card, I can forget the whole part about what resolution and bitrate to "capture" at. I can still convert from DV to mpeg2 or something else as I transfer the data to my laptop, but if I have room I think I'd be better off just transfering it as DV and then using a dedicated encoder (I am currently trying QuEnc) to turn it into the best quality mpeg2 DVD-compliant file that I can. I can then use whatever authoring program I want that doesn't re-encode the files.

    If I don't have the harddrive space to just transfer the video as DV, I'll have to look into a program that can do a GOOD job of re-encoding it to mpeg2 on the fly. Like you said, rebootjim, Windows Movie Maker and Nero Express aren't the best. I think I'll just try to do it the way I mentioned above: Keep it as DV and then put it through a dedicated encoder. Then, when I have a good quality final result from my authoring program, I can try DVDShrink if I need to.

    Thanks for all your help, guys. Sorry I spent so much of your time on the whole "capture" process when, in fact, that's not what I'm doing at all. Oops.

    Later,
    Mike
     
  10. rebelrob

    rebelrob Guest

    RebootJim,

    ok, lets get it going with Dvd Lab Pro, which I have. Can you steer me to a guide on how to get started, guess i can look but you seem to know the best guides out there. I want to take my capture video, mpeg1 or 2 and make a vcd, svcd or dvd, then burn. According to what we have been talking about how Nero reencodes everything and reduces the quality is becoming evident. I think I am seeing bad quality from these vhs tapes become even worse when trying to make a disc with nero.
    thx in advance,

    R
     
  11. waltersbg

    waltersbg Member

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    rebelrob:

    I just noticed today that NeroVision (at least the newest rev) has an option for "smart encode" or something like that. It is on the first page of the "default video options" that is accessible from the MORE area of NeroVision (at the bottom). Smart encode is off by default. If you turn it on, it says that it will not re-encode anything that is already compatible with the desired DVD output. With this box unchecked, Nero will, as rebootjim pointed out, re-encode everything.

    I am currently exploring the possibility of using a freeware tool called avisynth to make VHS captures look better by the time they are encoded to mpeg. Avisynth is a script-driven tool that has TONS of filters made for it by other users. It is possible that somewhere in all those filters is a set of operations that will make the end result of a VHS-to-DVD transfer look better. Unfortunately, it means having to capture the video is some kind of .avi format first so that you can run avisynth on it. As I said above, mine is captured by default as the DV-avi format. That still takes up quite a bit of HD space, but nowhere near as bad as uncompressed avi. When you run it through avisynth, it can be sent directly to an mpeg decoder.

    Good luck with your capture, encode, and authoring endeavors. I'll let you guys have your thread back for now and only report back if I find any kind of spectacular combination of things for what you're trying to do.

    Later,
    Mike
     
  12. rebelrob

    rebelrob Guest

    Mike,
    Thx for the tip, I will check that out 2nite on Nero. hmmm I wonder If it will give me a better quality. I need to check and see if it was checked the last few times I have created a dvd or svcd.
    Hey just jump in give any updates when you want. This is not my thread, the more the merryier. I have learned more since you spoke up.

    R
     
  13. pfh

    pfh Guest

    All in all, it boils down to what you are comfortable with. Considering the quality of vhs is really not good when compared to dvd but one would certainly hope to have an end product as good as the source. One thing I've noticed is mpeg editing/authoring software has improved within the last year so that can help in your decision making. I've only messed with mpeg since I can't capture to avi but after more research I wish I could do more experimenting to test the differnces myself. Alas, one only has so much time in a day or so much $.

    One thing for sure, this video stuff can get complicated but enjoyble! Thanks to people like the staff at aD to aid in our pursuit and those willing to help. Thank you. Now on to more reading......
     
  14. rebootjim

    rebootjim Active member

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    waltersbg. What can I say? <grin>
    Your process of capturing VHS through the Sony is ideal! It's the same as using a dedicated hardware encoder, you just get a DV file instead of mpeg-2, but NO loss in quality.
    From DV to mpeg-2 for dvd, there's NOTHING better than Canopus Procoder. QuEnc does work, and there are a couple of good GUI's for it. It's just tediously slow, but hey, it's free.

    rebelrob. I have written a few guides on dvdlab (and pro).
    From getting started, to creating switched menus, using D-FX, motion menus, special text effects, and more. Read em here: http://www.videohelp.com/guides.php...=0&listallusers=&search=Search+or+List+Guides
    DVDLab will only author DVD, not (S)VCD. Nerovision Express 3 (using "smart encode") is good for (S)VCD.
    Note: Version 2 does NOT have smart encode (that I know of), and is the source of MANY headaches.

    pfh. Somewhere back in this thread, I made some recommendations for capture aspect ratio/size.
    As the source is VHS, the best one can hope for is to maintain original quality. As waltersbg is doing, VHS to CAM to DV, then encode, the camcorder is doing the encoding (hardware) which is miles better than a software driven capture card.
     
  15. pfh

    pfh Guest

    Reboot's are awsome guides on DVD LAB I might add.
     

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