Video Card Thread (Mostly Gecube x1950xt)

MaccerM
Abuzar
Kardson
Sammorris
Waymon

Ok, guys I see I couldn't theoretically interest you in a Tec cpu cooling solution, even from our buddies at Thermalright. You're probably right, although I agree with Sam, I would trust Thermalright to "get it right."

MaccerM, (by the way, what's your first name - I'm Rich, Sammorris is Sam, Waymon is Ray or Raymond, kardson is Travis, and abuzar1 is abuzar) you mentioned that the cpu temperature wasn't the final factor in the monsoon small overclocking advantage 3.96 vs 3.94 over the thermalright product. However, Anandtech was taking the cpu temperature from the nvidia motherboard monitor, and I remember reading once, from a temperature sensor manufacturer, something along the lines of "cpu temperatures as reported by the motherboard are notoriously inaccurate, which is why serious overclockers attach a thin sensor to a side of the cpu chip." According to them, the motherboard does not directly measure cpu temperature, but uses test lab algorithms based on - I can't remember what - that aren't 100% valid in the real world.

That is why my premise in the monsoon win, was that the cpu temp "Must have been lower" despite the motherboard reporting to the contrary. But maybe you are correct. I was assuming that cpu temp was ultimately the only factor in ability to overclock - but of course the chipset has an effect.

Yes, I do understand, MaccerM, what you are saying about cpu temps designed to be hot. However, as Sam has helped me to understand, extreme overclocking can be achieve with radical cpu cooling. So, yes, even though the chips are designed to run hot - they can be overclocked more the colder they are. (That's what I have been led to believe - but correct me if I am wrong guys.) That is why my theoretical tec-based cpu cooler, pushing the cpu temp down to 40, should be the overclocking champ, unless I am missing something. But I do hear Sam - the extra case temperature would necessitate more fans, and ruin his "silent" case.

MaccerM, you also mentioned the fact that one of the boards Ray was asking about is the PCI-E version of the gecube. It may be possible that ATI doesn't directly support an AGP version of the x1950xt, because the Rialto PCI-E to AGP converter chip, generates major heat. Maybe that is why gecube thought originally that they needed the Tec cooler, because the agp version is just going to be a hotter card. Maybe they didn't think the normal PCI-E "leaf blower cooler" as Sam calls it, would handle the agp version, just because of that converter chip. What do you think about that Sam? (By the way, MaccerM, who is MACS - are they the TEC OEM manufacturer? If so can you link to their web site? Oh, I found them HERE - the company is called MACS, and also Casetek) - thanks MaccerM.

Wow! A guru3d review of MACS peltier cooler which was the only review link on the MACS web site, is a fantastic discussion on the whole subject, with the same considerations I have been making. The review pans the product! And the link remains on the web site. The review is interesting, because the reviewer was hoping for a lot more from the tec, and faults the way that MACS implemented the tec solution.

Anyway, between casetek and Gecube, they really botched up the product. Now, since they are ending up abandoning the agp market the way they said they wouldn't, they should contract with thermalright or somebody, to supply an oem cooler that works, if they truly can't figure out how to make the tec work. (One main problem with the TEC appears to be that they can't bolt it on tight enough, or even if they do initially, the weight of the TEC solution with the cooler, pipes and two fans, causes dislodgment during shipping, or even during hanging upside down in a conventional case, causing the tec to slowly lose contact with the gpu. Apparently a TEC must be held tightly under a certain minimum pressure, or heat will not transfer correctly.)

I just wonder if Gecube will be able to put out something reliable with low RMAs that will get newegg back in the gecube x1950xt agp game.

(While we're at it, did we ever really figure out why gecube didn't put 512mb on the agp board - it can't have anything to do with the agp port, can it, because the pro agp version, not as fast, has always had 512mb from several manufacturers. Did they just run out of room to throw in the extra RAM, or did they just not have the cooling capability, even with the TEC? Sam, any ideas on that subject?)

Abuzar, if memory serves me correctly, those 3dmark numbers are quite good, much higher than Ray or Travis.

I finally found Travis' score way back on page 19:

and Ray was also right in there

- they both have the gecube but Ray put a water cooler on it.

What did you say you were running, Abuzar? You are about half-way between those guys and Sam, who, with AMD equivalent to core 2 duo, is pushing just under 7000.

(What is it Sam, like 6700 or so? I'm hobbling along at 2260 with P4 3.2 and x850xtpe just barely getting 30fps on my most current WWII game, single player BIA-EIB at 1600 x 1024 but low settings. No MOA Airborne for me until I Gecube it, or if I can't find a gecube to buy, x1950pro. Ray, will you be selling your thermaltake gecube?) -Rich

 

Hey guys, well since we've been on this thread long enough for first name terms, I'm Mike.
I take your point about the cooler the chip, the higher the o/c potential and if you really could go below ambient the TEC would be ideal for a super overclock if you could get the heat out of the case. And it would also follow through that the monsoon might be cooling the chip more effectively as it would probably be heating the chipset more. Although, I did read a review of that cooler, and it seems to be a very effective conventional heatpipe solution anyway. In the review I read the tester (using an E700) said the TEC was only operational for a few seconds a time at full load (overclocked) and implied that just the heatpipe element was more than effective enough for that CPU. I guess that must make the monsoon quite a performer if you can find a chip that gets hot enough to use it's potential. So I think the jury is out for TEC cooling. All my lambasting over the last few months might have been a touch harsh, or even unfounded. I think the Gecube experience has definitely biased my view and I still wouldn't put one in my PC, but we'll see. As far as temp sensors, I thought there were sensors embedded in the heatspeader in the C2Ds. I get three cpu readings, core 1, 2 and overall. That may be wrong though?
Back to the Gecube, the Rialto is not that hot (not as hot as a Nvidia HSI) and also the chip is mounted on the rear of the card, so the 'leaf blower' wouldn't cool it at all, but neither does the TEC cooler as it is underneath the heat speader on the back. Also the layout of the other components (most notibly the voltage regs and associated) is different too, another rwason why the 'leaf blower wouldn't fit.
Wow, Abuzar I guess there is a big difference between the X1900GT and the X1950XT. If I tweak my card to the max (722/810) I get 5832 but it won't run games for very long at those clocks. The normal speeds I run at are 685/780 and I'm normally in the 5500-5600 ball park with my cpu at 2.1ghz (vs 1.86). That suggests your g/card is the bottleneck - overclock the card and you should see a big jump in your score.

 

Typically, if you want a reliable method of reporting the CPU temp, you take the core temperatures, they're supposed to be pretty accurate. Programs like Coretemp and I think Everest can report individual core temperatures. bear in mind that the whole perspective changes when using them, since the temperatures reported will always be significantly higher (read 55 when motherboard says 42, 73 when motherboard says 53).
You're right abotu heat being one of the factors controlling overclocks (obviously there's others to consider, chipset limit, memory limit and voltage limits, but usually if you get the right gear, only the latter is of concern)

Indeed, which is why I won't be getting an HD2900XT, despite the fact you can have those Thermalright cooled. That's just too much heat to have in a case, I'm sure the cooler would handle it, but it would require better airflow in the case.

On the why Gecube chose the TEC, I don't think it was a heat concern, I think it's compatibility. The stock cooler for cards like the X1900XT and X1950XT I believe is made by MEI. I don't think it fits the AGP card due to its different mounting bracket, so they made their own, and that's what they came up with.
As far as why it's not got 512MB, I think that's down to the limitations of the AGP platform itself, I can't name a 512MB AGP card, and I wonder whether the interface simply can't handle that much memory...
My 3dmark score is 6755 by the way.

 

Me and Sam have pretty much the same setup except I have a better CPU and he has a better GFX card with more RAM. I think it's the 1GB of RAM that's holding me back.

 

In 3dmark, I'd say it's all down to the graphics card. However, in real life games, you are definitely being held back on your RAM. I run out of RAM if I max the settings in FEAR: Extraction point. I'm not joking either, the game slows down and my memory monitor shows me "5MB free, Page file in use"

 

I should probably start a new thread on this.. But I am sorta partial to you guys...

Due to the benchmark results from other people on this forum I have decided to upgrade. I don't have the money to do it all at once, but I have found a way to do it in steps where it will not cost me so much at once.

BEHOLD! THE ASROCCK 775dual-vsta
Yes yes I know what your thinking AsRock? wtf..

but heard me out.

This board supports processors from the P4 500 and 600 series all the way up to the current Core 2 Quad Processors!

Not only that but it also has a AGP slot AND PCI-E slot!
AND, it has DDR and DDR2 memory support

SO I can get the board now, upgarde the processor in a month to like a Core2Duo and then upgrade the Memory to DDR2

The best part is, I can get it all past the wifey!

See, I tell her the motherboard died... she will let me me spend the $65 on that... no problem. Sorta hard to replace the motherboard in a windowed case without her noticing anyhow.

Everything after that she won't be able to tell
Wmaauuu ahahahahahahahah

Check it out @

http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=775Dual-vsta
Almost all socket 775 processor support
DDR and DDR2 support
AGP and PCI-E support

newegg has it pretty cheap
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16813157115

I figure, in the end I can buy another high end motherboard to swap this one out with once I buy another video card when needed.
What you guys think?

 

That's the motherboard I have. Plusses; It's cheap +, It's got support for everything 775 wise including Core 2 Quads +, It's cheap +.
Negatives; PCIE 4x slot, so only really any use for an AGP card. Poor overclocker - I've managed 12% max with my E6320 (although for the price range I suppose you could consider that fair) If you do want to overclock get a cpu with as high a multiplyer as poss as you will only get up to 300mhz fsb - also read the guides on how to set the bios settings to achieve this. SATA, but not SATA II as on some of the other AsRock halfway-house boards. Says it supports DDRII 667 but always runs in 533 (or whatever you've clocked to), I got 667 anyway for when I move to a new board and can actually get the fsb up near that, and also you can tighten the memory timings up while you're waiting. And just a few other little annoyances from moving from a top end Asus board, like the voltage to the front USB ports is too weak to run my portable HDD so I have to scrabble around at the back of the case to plug it in, no onboard firwire connector and a few other bits you learn to think of as standard.
I have to say though, at the end of all that it does perform well for a budget board and it does what it says on the tin. It's cheap and it lets you upgrade your system bit by bit untill you are ready to put something decent in there to replace it.

 

Agreed, it's an interim board of sorts, but since you really need a better board than it if you want to get a decent system, I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be better simply to wait and buy something good to start with.

 

My situation calls for something a little less obvious though. Due to the wifey. Can I get a $60 part without being castrated? Yes.

Can I buy...

a new vid card $300
new memory $200
new proc $ 250
new mobo $150
TOTALING $900? probably not

 

Fair enough. Does she go looking inside the PC to check though? If so, surely you won't be able to make any changes.

 

She's a pretty smart chick.

A motherboard swap-out she'll notice.
but she can't bitch to much about a $60 part.

Memory? think not.
CPU.. Gonna use the same heat sink. so im safe there.

Video card.. well, that one I'll have to get "permission" for

 

Lol fair enough.

 

MaccerM Mike
Kardson Travis
Abuzar1 Abuzar
Sammorris Sam
Waymon3x6 Ray
Harvrdguy Rich

Sam....................6755..........................E4300-3ghz...........2gig..............x1900xt 512mb
Mike....................5982......(5600)...........E6320 2.11ghz......2gig...............gecube
Abuzar................5562 .........................E6400-3.44ghz.....1gigDDR2........x1900gt 256mb
Ray....................4758...........................P4 3.2 oc'd 3.75....3gigDDR400....gecube
Travis.................4499 ..........................P4 3.0..................2gigDDR400....gecube
Rich...................2260...........................P4 3.2..................1gigDDR400....x850xtpe 256mb

 

Hehe yep. Don't make me up my CPU overclock to try and break 7000!

 

Well, I think you should try to break 7000 - you're so friggin close!!

Guess what guys, sparkle (unlike gecube) was able to take one of the MACS tec coolers, and make it work - they're venting out the back of the case!!

Here's the bjorn review: Sparkle Calibre 8800GTX

Bjorn qualifies his enthusiasm slightly. This card beats to hell the 8800gtx from asus, but sparkle's regular 8800gtx is a high performer as it is. So Bjorn adds that he's not sure that the extra $100 for the calibre (sparkle's top of the line brand) version (with the tec) gives that much extra performance over the regular sparkle 8800gtx. He shows better 3dmark6 scores but the review is a little weak in that he doesn't provide a direct fps comparison.

He does say, however, that the tec is shown to keep the gpu cooler (67 C) than the standard sparkle card and with the tec, sparkle overclocks the card about 10% as it is. Anyway, my main point was, here is a tec cooler, apparently professionally mounted on sparkles top end brand called caliber, blowing out the back of the case.

way to screw things up, Gecube!!

 

We all knew it could be done. But now realise that the 8800 card, whilst being cooled effectively, is still using a good 200W of power. Thermalright make a 6 pipe version of the HR-03, the HR-03 Plus, for the 8800 series, and it still kicks just as much ass.

As for me breaking 7000, I might try it, but my PC's running so well I'm loathed to touch it. My board doesn't take well to changing my overclocks, and often doesn't let me back!

 

Sam,

I have to correct you. Yes, I have read that the agp interface limits vram on the card, but both diamond and sapphire make a x1950pro with 512 mb of vram. You might argue that the extra ram is for marketing only and that the agp interface doesn't allow effective utilization of that vram, and I couldn't argue that with you without digging into it a little more, but my point was that, for sure, 512 mb agp cards are out there.

 

Fair enough, given the recent light about Sparkle's successful use of a TEC, there's a lot of things we can't explain about the Gecube...

 

Yes, the engineering department at Gecube needs some new faces.

Here's another interesting thing about the sparkle tec implementation from this review which notes the following:

The tec does not make direct contact with the gpu, unlike with the gecube. There is a base, directly contacting the gpu, with two heat pipes leading to a sink and fan, then the tec, then another plate with two more pipes leading to sink and fan.

I wonder if this approach had the advantage of allowing them to lock up the tec between the two plates and guarantee the tec/plate pressure that I have read is important for optimal tec performance. Instead of going directly for tec/gpu contact, they sandwiched the tec between the plates. (Or am I just confused and is this how gecube also did it?) -Rich

 

Damn it Sam, why do you have so much of a higher score than me! How much better is your card? I do have a better motherboard and CPU lol.