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World Opinion

Discussion in 'Safety valve' started by DarkmanX, Apr 23, 2004.

  1. DarkmanX

    DarkmanX Regular member

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    I always see on the news how world opinion is negative towards the U.S. and the war on Iraq. Sense members of this great sight are citizens of the world, I was wondering how citizens of other countries view America and her efforts against the war on terrorism; more importantly, would you support your own government in assisting in the war on terrorism?
     
  2. Oriphus

    Oriphus Senior member

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    Americans foreign policy is somwhat of a major issue around the world. Think of America as this:

    America - Big Giant Man Walking through woods
    Rest of World - An ant-hill somewhere in the forest

    Big Giant Man is walking through the forest. Comes across a big ant-hill, but instead of walking round it to avoid the ants, Big Giant Man walks right over the top of them. Then, Big Giant Man goes to sleep in his tent near the ant-hill. He wakes up in the middle of the night with loads of ant-bites all over him and he thinks to hiself:

    "Why are the ants all biting me? What did i do to deserve it?"

    Americans would be far better suited to sorting out their own crime, poverty and other domestic problems before they go plundering around the rest of the world sorting out theirs. American's, in my opinion, believe democracy should be with-held, but not practiced. Why do they feel the need to poke their noses into every little thing.

    Americans say, Iran was causing us problems, lets give Iraq loads of weapons to supress Iran and prevent them from becoming "a potential threat". So they have a coot, bring a dictatorship into power, supply him with loads of arms and make him a powerful man (Hussein). Then, they are surprised when this man decides he likes this power he has and wants to try and take over a few other countries (something America has not sanctioned). So, America can no longer control him and they launch a pointless dessert storm and then pull out leaving thousands to die.

    Who do you think supplied Osama Bin Laden with his weapons. Osama Bin Laden was largerly funded by the CIA with a lot of cash. Then, as history always dictates, give someone too much power and they want more. The whole 20th century is listed with loads of instances were America has given arms and power to people to suit their own needs. America overthrow many leaders around the world, even though they were democratically elected, and place a dictatorship in power instead. Are people really surprised why so many people hate America? And America claims to practice Democracy - I disagree - America trys to uphold it, not practice it.

    I ask you this: Why is it so many people are shot in America and so many are killed by gunfire each year. Americans are gun-nuts, and power-nuts. Ok, Canadians may have more guns per capita, but why is it that very little canadians are murdered by guns each year?

    I ask you this: Why is the legal age to drink in America 21, yet you can buy a gun with a drivers licence when you are 16 years old. Is that to saw you are mature enough to take on the responsibility of an assult weapon (what a gun is) but not capable of drinking? Which do you think would lead to more problems - 16 year olds walking around with guns, or 16 year olds pissed out of their minds?

    Thanks
    Chris
     
  3. ken0042

    ken0042 Regular member

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    Bring on the drunk 16 year olds!
     
  4. Samantha

    Samantha Member

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    Being Australian and Australia being a little dot on the planet, I hate this whole war crap.
    America need to pull their heads in and work on their own country before trying to control others. All attempts to prove Weapons of Destruction were being stored or made have turned up to be nothing Nada.
    Bush is just like his Dad, a complete control freak.
    I watch the news in fear, fear for the next suicide bomber, fear for the next mother and child being blown up fear for the next country in turmoil.
    When 911 happened my son watch the footage in the morning, he ran into my room and said "Mummy I can't go to school today, thousands of preople died today and some where mums like you" I was shocked.
    I am forever waiting for something to happen to Australia, something thats not deserved.
    Protect those who need protecting, help those who need help, fix what needs fixing BUT don't try to control something thats not yours.

    P.S Australias legal age is 18 to drink, 16 to get your drivers licence, but thanx to an insane Mad man guns are a little harder to come by
    _
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small][​IMG][/small]
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2004
  5. Oriphus

    Oriphus Senior member

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    Firstly, just like to ask - aint Australians just British convicts sent to a penal colony lol - im kidding.

    Just wanted to say, Americas war on terrorism was to prevent world terrorists and help us rest easy. Since America startedits war on Terrorism, who here feels a lot safer?
    I think that quotation is the opinion of most people now. One of the best points i've heard just came from our Sam - take head everyone:

    [bold]Protect those who need protecting, help those who need help, fix what needs fixing BUT don't try to control something thats not yours. [/bold]

    "BUT don't try to control something thats not yours." - that also applies to women guys ;-)
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small]For your DVD needs http://www.dvd-and-media.com
    http://www.dvd-backup.tk
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    Last edited: Apr 23, 2004
  6. Samantha

    Samantha Member

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    I think, every morning when we wake up and see the sun, we're lucky to be alive. Australia is an easy country to destroy. Our standards on immigration need to be looked at again, as we let have the killers in.

    Grrr dont get me started
     
  7. Nephilim

    Nephilim Moderator Staff Member

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    Being a very proud American, I will say that our politicians like to stick their noses where they don't belong.

    I just hate it when people from other countries assume that all Americans think like our idiot politicians do - we don't!

    Sure we can vote them out, but there hasn't been one single presidential candidate I've truly liked since I was able to vote. Our political system has been perverted into a rich man's game. It's a choice between shithead A and shithead B.

    Abraham Lincoln grew up dirt poor, taught himself to read and was downright ugly but he was one of the greatest Presidents this country will ever see. He would [bold]never[/bold] get elected today. Why? Because he had integrity. This country hasn't seen a president with integrity for decades. The last one that had any semblance of integrity got his head blown off by Oswald.

    I'm damn proud of my country and it's people, but I do have a lot of problems with the things my government does.
     
  8. Samantha

    Samantha Member

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    Nephilim, I don't judge a country by its people, i'm sorry if I came across like that. I love Americans, my future Husband is Yank *waves to future husband Brad Pitt* LOL

    Look at our so called "Men In Charge" he has eyebrows long enough to plait, is as short as a gnome and wouldnt know shit from clay.
    [​IMG]
    God could you wake up to his butt ugly mug??I know I couldn't without chewing my right arm off
     
  9. brian100

    brian100 Guest

    Nephilim

    I really think that hits the nail on the head.

    America needs (DESERVES) some integrity & intelligence at the top of the pile.

    Its a shame Michael Moore can't run, it's be far more fun!! (ignore that statement, but hey that guys got good sense, he listens, he gathers the facts and then acts)

    As a brit I honestly get embarrased when Tony Blair appears to "carry" George Bush through joint news conferences that they have. It puts out extremely bad signals for everyone who listens, IE who's in charge, who's thinking, who cares!!

    As a brit I dont dislike Americans, as do many others in my country. I just feel at times that America could really make a great difference to world stability if they simply looked at the facts & formed a properly constructed strategy before appearing to plunder!!.

    Please don't take offence, these observations, in my opinion are constructive.
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small]Why are The Samaritans always engaged?[/small]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2004
  10. DarkmanX

    DarkmanX Regular member

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    Great comments and input! Just for clarrification though, Americans CAN NOT buy firearms at 16. That is against the law. you must be 18 to purchase a rifle/shotgun and 21 for a handgun. You're also correct that America has created distrust throughout the world by assisting militants to overthrough governments for our own gain. However, the sins of the past are just that; in the past-we can only account for what we do today. How many countries, other than america, has a conflict with another country and then pays to rebuild it? Politics today do suck, but we did not ask to have bombs at our overseas embassies killing marines, we did not ask to have bombings that killed americans in the Kolbar towers Riyhad, saudi arabia, and we certainly did not ask to have jumbo jets flown into skyscrapers. What do we do, nothing. There was a car bomb at the twin towers in the early 90's and we did nothing, we did nothing for the bombing of the USS Cole, or the Kolbar Towers incident. The terrorist were allowed to attack us over and over for years now with no reaction from america. we are looked upon by the world as this "Giant" and yet, if anything is accomplished throughout the world-we have to do it. We provide almost 1/2 the funding for the U.N. and if you want to criticize a political entity, it's the U.N. They are just a bunch of figure heads who sit around and what to talk, never act. They gave Hussein countless resolutions that he blantantly ignored time and time again. They are all talk and no action-hence no credibility to a terrorists. Speaking of politics, it has been proven that most of the countries that spoke against the war (France, Canada, Germany, Russia) have contracts guaranteeing oil from Iraq. So are they acting in whats right or are they interested in monetary gain? In my opinion, this is nothing more then dealing with a school yard bully. If you don't act, the bully will become encouraged to do more. Look what happened in Spain. Americans are spoiled, and we have many liberties that we take for granted. We don't live in an Afganistan where everyday could be a war zone. We never have the stomach to follow through when it comes to engagements; and I think that the terrorists are counting on a lack of resolve from america. If they continue to inflict casulaties on us, I think they believe we will leave, which will only encourage more outright incidents! Since this is an election year I believe that there may be more incidents to try and discredit Bush so he'll lose the election, because they know that his competition will leave there land if he wins the presidency and then what will negate them to continue their inhumane activity. They just bombed a bunch of their own children!!!
     
  11. Oriphus

    Oriphus Senior member

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    lol - I ask you this - who got the building contracts to rebuild Iraq? Was it Iraqi's, NO. Was it middle-eastern countries - NO. Was it mostly American contractors?? _ YES IT WAS. So therefore, by blowing Iraq to bits, and then rebuilding it, America is in effect strengthening its economy....is it not?
     
  12. DarkmanX

    DarkmanX Regular member

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    Oriphus, I have come to think that you are a very knowledgable person, and I admit that U.S. contractors are getting most of the work, but to be fair, the U.S. is the one taking casulaties. The middle eastern countries don't even want us to be there. It has been documented that saudi arabia has a hand in the 9/11 event, particularly in funding. Where is the help from the very people we are fighting to liberate. No one is providing intelligence as to the identity of these cowards who fire on troops from crowds of civilians. The U.S. has to be politically correct in our tactics, the terrorists are playing by a different sort of rules. Besides, the weapons of mass destruction was just one facid of this war. It had been documented that Saddam had weapons in the 90's because he had used them against his own people. The other facid was the war on countries harboring terrorists and training camps. We gave Saddam months to leave his country and he chose to stay. He ignored countless U.N. resolutions that he was suppose to abide by after Desert Storm. We didn't wake up one morning and say, we need to stimulate our ecomony, let's start a war! As previously pointed out, we were attacked time and time again with no backlash from america. Terrorist cells were planted in the U.S. for years to take training on how to fly planes and plan there attack. Why haven't we heard from the peaceful muslims to standup against terrorists acting in the name of their religion? Where is the outrage from Aljazeera? There is suppose to be a ceasefire, yet american forces are still being attacked. We see people rejoice as a humvee is on fire with dead americans inside. How about sone information about who these people are. They walk around with rocket propelled grenade launchers on tv, and then they are combatants the next.I'm not saying I have the answers and I think that it's good that we can discuss this from different cultural points of view. I think for better or worst, we have to see this through or it will only strengthen the resolve of terrorists throughout the world.
     
  13. Oriphus

    Oriphus Senior member

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    Ohh, theres your first mistake lol :-D

    Very true of course. It wasnt my intention to imply this. What i do think is that the Americans, after going from 'Anti-World' in the early part of the 20th Century, were they put massive importation levies on all goods around the world and effectly isolated themselves from the rest of the world, to a 'pro-world' lets stick our noses into everything and manipulate everyone elses domestic and foreign policy.

    Generally speaking, why is there a waar on terrorism? Why are there terrorists? OK, this applies to many and not all...

    Take the Palestine Suicide Bombers...are they terrorists?
    Take the Republican IRA...are they terrorists?
    Take many of the owlrds so called terrorists, and decide...are they terrorists? The reason i ask this is because i see a distinction between acts of pure terrorism (in an attempt for power/domination/general mayhem, and what i consider forced terrorism.

    Terrorism - The systematic use of terror and intimidation to achieve ones goal(s) - what i perceive the term to mean.
    What is the Basic Human Right - The right to life. One of those basic principles is the right to freedom. Freedom from terror and imtimidation. However, what do you do in the situation where someone has invaded your land, stolen it and forced you to live elsewhere, even in camps? What do you do if someone forces their laws/opinions/foreign and doemstic policies upon you.

    Two classic examples:

    1). The IRA are terrorists in the broad sense of the word. They do kill innocent people and they do intimidate and terrorise. However, is there a reason behind these acts of violence or are they mainly just 'bad' people. Was they're land invaded by the British, and do they have a right to try and defend/attack the original aggressors?

    2). The Palestine suicide bombers and general terrorists (such as Hamas, PLO, PFLP and a few others) do attack and kill many innocent civilians. Whats their reason? Oppression, forced governing, poor lifestyles and stolen land.

    What the point that im getting at, and its not merely addressed towards the US, is that the main reason for terrorism always tends to relate back to the fundamental principle of the Freedom poeple are given under the world constitution of Human Rights, that is abused and taken away from many. By taking peoples freedom, land, towns, cities, industries, money; it is inevitable that they wont be happy about it. It is inevitable that they will want it back and it is inevitable that they will attempt to get it back via all means posssible. If this means terrorism, then so be it. But i ask you, who is to blame? The terrorists or the oppressors?


    I just want to clarify that im not having a go at the America people in general. Im having a go at all nations who actively or behind the scenes engage in acts of injustices to peoples around the world. Saddam Hussein was a bad person, and although i feel the war was unjust, something did need to be done about the suffering of many of its people. Al-Queda only came about because of one rich man (Osama) and its suppliers (the US). Al-Queda however, wuld never of attacked America unless they felt a great grevience towards them (the plight of their fello Palestines and other causes) which (the plight that is) was supported by the Americans. We are talking about people who are taking their own lives in a cause they feel is just....its that extreme. So to be that extreme, the oppression they feel they suffer is equally extreme.

    Who's fault is it that Al-Queda attacked the US. Al-Queda's? Or could it be the US's for supporting Isreal and other similiar foreign policies? I dont know?

    Just want to point out what thing - although i have said very negative things about America, i do actually like the country and its people, and spend a good bit of time there....So peace to anyone who may feel agrieved or offended by my comments/

    Chris
     
  14. Samantha

    Samantha Member

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    Sorry, couldn't resist

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Oriphus

    Oriphus Senior member

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    Nice touch as usually ;-)
     
  16. DarkmanX

    DarkmanX Regular member

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    No hard feelings at all! That was why I started the thread, to hear from other perspectives. "...after going from 'Anti-World' in the early part of the 20th Century, were they put massive importation levies on all goods around the world and effectly isolated themselves from the rest of the world, to a 'pro-world' lets stick our noses into everything and manipulate everyone elses domestic and foreign policy". This is true, but we have over compensated for this past transgression. Now look at our foreign trade policy, we get screwed by Japan and China becasue they levy heavy taxes on our products and we allow them to thrive in ours because we don't have a fair trade policy. I agree that the term terrorist depends on what side of the coin you're looking at! Some may call these groups freedom fighters, hell, our forefathers may have been considered terrorist when we faught to liberate against Britain. As far as Bin Laden goes; we had a mutual enemy at the time , so we aided his cause as long as it benefited us, but it seems that throughout history, there are several allies that were once enemies. I'm not attacking you Oriphus, and I won't make the mistake of assuming you're knowledgable again, but you're one of the few to engage in this discussion. Thanks for the insightful thoughts
     
  17. Sophocles

    Sophocles Senior member

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    As a proud American, I am not so proud to admit that a very large part of our international policy is based on economics, (largely our economics). Oriphus was right when he said that Hussein and Bin Laden were failed by products of US policy and so was Panama’s Manuel Noriega, and then there was the puppet government we tried to erect and support in Vietnam. In fact there are few nations in modern history (with the possible exception of English colonialism, yes Oriphus I saw Gandhi) that have so ruthlessly and negatively affected the direction of less fortunate peoples’. Like Nephilim I too have a hard time placing my trust in politicians who are so wealthy that they no longer need to work to provide for their needs and in their boredom think that being the President might be a nice role to play. In affect we Americans have become a Macro play house for silly rich kids who never had to struggle for anything. I do however still participate in the process in spite of the dislikes I have for candidates of either side, because there is always one of them that is a little less nastier then the other and therefore the better choice. Let’s just say that in my opinion Moses stood before the wrong burning Bush.
    _X_X_X_X_X_[small]If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." Thomas Jefferson
    [/small]
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2004
  18. Nephilim

    Nephilim Moderator Staff Member

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    ****First off ******

    To Samantha and all others - I didn't mean to imply any sort of angry tone with anyone and wasn't taking umbrage at anything anyone said :) It's all good!

    That's what truly breaks my heart. Our gov't could but it doesn't.

    How is it supposed to look when the gov't contracts for fuel in Iraq are awarded to Dick Cheney's former company (Haliburton) without any bidding and then the bastards grossly overcharge the gov't while they're at it. How is any country supposed to respect us when blatantly corrupt crap like that goes on. We can't even keep consistent foreign policy - we've had an embargo against Cuba for decades because of human rights violations yet we do billions of dollars worth of trade with China (great human rights there!).

    Respect has to be earned through consistent and fair actions. Our gov't likes to try and buy it.

    Now don't anybody get me wrong, I love my country and it's heritage with all my heart - I just can't stand all these idiot politicians with their "hooray for me and f*ck everyone else" adgendas.

    One other thing, I know a lot of people like him but Michael Moore is a worthless turd. Just my opinion :)
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    Last edited: Apr 25, 2004
  19. Sophocles

    Sophocles Senior member

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    Nephilim, there is nothing un-American about saying it like it is, it’s your right. Jefferson believed that it was the people’s duty to openly disagree with our governments bad decisions and to even stand up to them. You’ve come close to stating what most of the Planet has already come to believe, that it was about oil and that 911 provided our government with the lame excuse they needed to go to war to get it. I think that the former president Bush’s Vice President Dan Quayle says it best (These are real Quotes).

    The U.S. victory in Gulf war was a stirring victory for the forces of aggression.
    Vice President Dan Quayle, 4/11/91 (reported in Esquire, 8/92)

    I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change.
    Dan Quayle, 5/22/89

     
  20. DarkmanX

    DarkmanX Regular member

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    Amen Nephilim! "Respect has to be earned through consistent and fair actions. Our gov't likes to try and buy it." Obviously, China doesn't respect us, yet we allow that bogus foreign trade policy to exist where are products are levied an incredible tariff and theirs are not. Great analogy about the bored rich kid! Unfortunately, the way the system is set up, you have to have access to money to run for office.

    Sophocles, I'm not saying that American companies are not benefiting from the war in Iraq, but to say it was an excuse is a little conspiracy theory, don't you think? Are you saying that we should've just turned the other cheek, again?! What kind of credibility would we have, let alone respect if we allowed a bully to continually slap us in the face?Clinton had many opportunities to go after these terrorist, including Bin Laden and he didn't. He allowed the bombings to continue with only a lame ass response like, "lets have a bombing for a week, in a giant sandbox! That'll teach them". He allowed cells to train freely in countries that supported terrorists. He even cut the military's budget and manpower. He wanted to dismantle the CIA. With all of these efforts, we relied on technology and became spoiled with relying on technology (satelites, electronic monitoring equipment) for national security. We had no men on the ground to gather intelligence about how terrorist were preparing a war against us, now we are criticized because we are at war with them! Why did we even stop when we were there the first time in 1991? If it was all about the oil, we could've taken it then?
     

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