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You too can be an audio expert

Discussion in 'Audio' started by Mez, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. Jeffrey_P

    Jeffrey_P Regular member

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    Had a few Dual TT's. Used to order them and other electronic gadgets from the long time defunct Allied catalog. Built my first electronic device ordering from Allied... A fuzz box when I was 11 years old.

    You're right, high end TT's are overkill, still some people have to have them.

    A vast majority of babies can't hear 20 Hz-20 KHz. At 57 I've lost my mid range hearing do to playing loud R&R while sitting on my amps and loud concerts. In restaurants, voices sound like blah, blah blah, blah blah. Some decent miniature very expensive hearing aids are available that hide in the ear canal. Still I can tell the difference between a CD vs vinyl.

    Jeff

    Edit: Looks like Allied is still in business. The catalog doesn't seem to be as vast as the past.

    http://www.alliedelec.com/alliedhistory.aspx
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  2. Jeffrey_P

    Jeffrey_P Regular member

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    In the early nineties I went to a demo at Hermary's high end audio in San Carlos, CA. The demo was turntable that used a laser for tracking. Never having to touch the vinyl the record had a infinite lifespan. It never caught on mostly because CD's were a big deal at the time. Also it was very expensive.

    Jeff
     
  3. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    As we listen to music, our physical means to hear wears out but the software improves. It is like most parts of the body if you use them a lot they get stronger. We can discuss this if you like it is quite interesting. My son who used mosquito tones on his cell phone could not hear artifacts in music that I felt were too prominent that I could comfortably listen to the music. It does not surprise me in the least that you can tell the difference between a CD and vinyl. It is a common claim and I am one of those claimants. I can't tell the difference between a captured vinyl and live vinyl. I don't 'clean up' my vinyl captures. I leave them 'raw'. There is a 'warmness' to vinyl that may be caused by minor distortions created by the low voltage flowing through the patch cord. This was not noticed till the advent of the CD. If you use 'single crystal' patch cords this effect is greatly diminished. I thought I could still hear the difference with single crystal patch cords and the CD but the test was not blind. Now that I know more I am not so sure. Since I am not willing to spend $200 to resurrect my turn table I surely will not spend that on a patch cord that will make my vinyl sound like CDs. They were more popular in the early days of the CD. When CDs cost more than LPs and the public craved the crispness of the CD.

    Now there is a huge mystique with vinyl. I have a friend who has no kids so could afford a LP washer and other super expensive equipment. He tried to impress me with how much additional information the LP holds. He thinks he can hear the difference but was not willing to take a blind test between vinyl 'live' and captured. My turn table still worked then. I claimed he could hear the diff and probably thought he could but the diff was probably very small. He did not want to prove to himself he could have saved $20,000 and just played captured vinyl. I don't blame him. His audio equipment is his only claim to fame.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
  4. Mickoz74

    Mickoz74 Regular member

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    Use Isopropanol Alcohol based cleaner some you buy have a detergent with it. will remove mould and other rubbish from the vinyl (Depends where you get your vinyl from as well, Amazing results from bad looking boot-sale records that looked trashed), spray on the record not on the record label and wipe from inside to outside, not in concentric circles as this will drag the dirt through the groove damaging more of the track. only speaking from experience here. I have chanced buying some really good records for pennies they looked like they would not play to a high standard but after cleaning them they were great.
    Note the Isopropanol Alcohol will evaporate to nothing once you finished cleaning them you don't have to worry about them being wet when you play them.
     
  5. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    Great tip! I would instinctively wipe in concentric circles. What do you use for cloth?
     
  6. Mickoz74

    Mickoz74 Regular member

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    novice as i was kitchen towel lol i use micro fibre cloth, kitchen paper towels and dusters leave bits on the record, j cloth doesn't get all the rubbish off, you can get isopropanol
    comes in plastic bottle you can put on the cloth and wipe in, or i find better with the spray top (WITHOUT DETERGENT)78rpm and a kit made up
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
  7. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    So you KNOW you can hear the difference between lossy and lossless.

    The first thing I say to this is the difference between high quality lossy and lossless is negligible in that 1% of music recordings that there may actually be different. Since you claim you can hear the difference when they are identical might indicate you are delusional. Let me explain…

    a quote from http://journal.plasticmind.com/ears/mosquito-tone-or-how-to-tell-youre-a-youngun/

    The page has hearing tests and a hearing chart

    http://journal.plasticmind.com/assets/12ring-graphic.gif

    Just incase the site gets deleted here is some of what is in the chart

    Note - the low end is for persons that do not listen to loud music or noises, ever. It has NOTHING to do with your IQ.
    18 – 24 yrs can hear up to 16 kHz
    30 – 39 yrs can hear up to 15 kHz
    40 – 49 yrs can hear up to 13 kHz
    50 – 59 yrs can hear up to 12 kHz
    To hear 20 kHz you need to be maybe 5 yrs old
    Highest note on a piano 4KHz
    Uppermost note of the piccolo 4 kHz
    Highest note produced by a human voice 2kHz


    Lame VBR at its second highest setting captures 19383 Hz - 19916 Hz. I could not find what the highest setting but it is likely to be 20,000 or the same as lossless or so close to it doesn’t matter. Even at 19916 the difference is 1%. Hearing is one of our least accurate senses. Claiming that you can tell the difference between lossless and lossy is pretty much an ignorant boast. It assumes that what you are listening to actually has some note that is higher than 199920 Hz which is rare. 1) Probably in a random sampling of popular music probably less than 3 out of the hundred recordings ACTUALLY HAS a 20,000 Hz note. Since most recording do not have 20,000 Hz tones and you think you can hear the difference when there is none you are deluding yourself. 2) Even if you have a recording that has a 20kHz tone loud enough for you to hear, it is still like claiming if you are looking at a 100 ft tree you can reliably see at a glance if the tree was only 99 ft high. It has to be at a glance since the resonance tone may not last for even a second. Remember sight is out most accurate sense while hearing is our least accurate sense. #0 Lastly, the high tones are only resonances. A high C is not even 2 kHz. Primary notes of any instrument are all below 5 kHz. Fletcher–Munson effect (to hear tones as the frequency increases the loudness must increase log rhythmically to be able to hear it) requires a tone that is 99.99% of your hearing limit to be over 100 times as loud as the primary note to be able to hear it which they can’t be since they are only resonances.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  8. Mez

    Mez Active member

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  9. Mez

    Mez Active member

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  10. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    Optical Disk Info

    I am trying to preserve my old DVD library and I am having plenty of trouble. Some disks are not a huge loss if they can't be read others are worth a great deal of effort to preserve. I am using a fairly high end reader, Plexor which reads damaged disks better than the cheaper ones.

    Care and preservation as well as an excellent, detailed description of optical disks and how they work
    http://dlis.dos.state.fl.us/archives/preservation/dvds/index.cfm


    Optical disk aging
    I have an old enough library and large enough library that aged optical disks are a real problem.
    My experience is that:
    CDs out live DVDs
    Disks burned at slow speeds last longer the burn spots are bigger
    Disks that must be burned slow last longer because the dye is more stable
    Ultra premium disks produced only in Japan last a great deal longer than the rest. Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim are the only brands in this category. In my collection, these and a huge batch of cheap 2x unbranded DVDs can be read after 10 years. Later I discovered they had a tiny Taiyo Yuden code stamped at the spindle that I had over looked because it was so small. I have trouble reading most of the old unbranded but they are still salvageable. Most other DVD brands often don't last 5 years. I rate Sony the worst, with Memorex and store brands next and Fugi is a bit better but will be toast or near toast by 7 years. Some dyes are more stable than the rest. A good article on optical disk aging -
    http://www.rense.com/general52/themythofthe100year.htm
    You need to store them out of the light and in a cool spot.

    Recovery tools for damaged optical disks
    http://mp3.about.com/od/cdanddvdsoftware/tp/Top-5-Free-File-Recovery-software-Programs.htm
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
  11. xboxdvl2

    xboxdvl2 Regular member

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    i just tried a couple of old discs out of curiosity and music cd from 2006 works fine its a copy on ultra media accessories .
    I found an old copied dvd and tested it but wouldn't read and it was silver on top but half of it looks the colour of beer no brand name written on it (think it was a tdk but could be wrong).

    i also have a few rap cds from 2001, 2 worked but kept skipping.1 worked and played but it had like a scratching or muffled noise in it.
    they are not top brand disc if anything the ones i use are cheap usually.

    i have also moved house about a dozen times and my discs are stored in cases but cases get cracked or generally damaged (i replace the cases sometimes and test the disc).
     
  12. scorpNZ

    scorpNZ Active member

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    My music cd's exceed well over 20 years of age most are 29 y/o ; only 1 of them thus far has issues when played in a mediocre cd playe just recently,on the comp it's fine,all of them were ripped to flac on hdd a few years ago,so they pretty much been in storage for around 8 years now,they're retail cd's.
     
  13. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    The really old CDs were made with gold and silver and were very expensive. The gold may actually last 100 years. Those were the media originally tested to see how long optical media lasts. The poly-carbonate was a higher quality but at a $1 a disk in quantity they could afford the best. I still have a few gold CDs to use for serious archives.

    Xbox you can likely recover the CDs since it is just starting to go. The unstoppable copier was the only useful app of the five mentioned in the article. I have been trying to recover a fob file and the estimated time was 1000 hrs. On the bright side it is much bigger than a CD. I bet it will not be painful to recover the CD. Readable files copy at normal speeds. Only the unreadable ones take forever. I backed up all my music to HDs when you could first buy 2T disks. I am doing the same for videos. Videos on less than optimum DVDs can read fine then not be readable a year later. The newer disks fail much quicker than the old 2x disks. I could still read the disks that were failing 5 yrs ago and made new copies when the new copies failed. I had to read one of them at less than .1 x but there were no read errors.

    Monitoring your optical disk collection needs to be routine if you value them, especially if they are on DVDs.

    My latest research suggests it may not be the dye speed but that those old DVDs are probably foil topped. Those disks last longer than the datalife Verbatims. So maybe the slower dyes are more stable or maybe the foil is thicker on those very old disks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
  14. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    More of media blank life this has more to do with DVDs than CD. Because the 'data dots' are bigger and there is more space between the dots on CDs they last much longer than DVDs. The old Data Life Verbatim DVDs used to last 10+ years. I stopped buying anything but Verbatims for at least 10 years because Sonys didn't always last a year. The new Verbatim disks do not last nearly as long as they used to. Now I find some going bad in less than a year.

    I have been doing research trying to find descent DVD media. The info posted below was posted a a little after 2000 as I found a link too this in a 2002 post. At that time longevity was a concern, now I think speed and price are the only concerns. I cut and pasted the info here in case this post lives longer than the source. The Verbatim Data Life line is now discontinued except for blu-rays. At this time you could still buy foil backed blanks they were dropped due to the expense. I bought some CD gold foil blanks 10 for $100. I still have a few reserved for serious archiving.

    I am searching for some new blanks. I am surprised to find the name Taiyo Yuded still on the market. They had been the best brand. I will try to research to find out if they still make a quality product.

    The Verbatim disks I used that lasted for so long (10-15 yrs) were a product named 'data life'. These were foil backed, slow burning, Azo dye DVDs. I can't find that type in a brick and motor store but never checked the internet. They do have a new line of blu-ray blanks with metal foil. I now back everything up on Hard disks. They are the only media that will last for 10 years or more. How much more I don't know. I haven't lost anything on a HD unless it crashed. I am sure they are making them cheaper than they were 10 years ago.

    Verbatim does make a gold foil/Azo DVD for a little more than 2 for $1 plus shipping. I will need to buy some of these. They have a limited lifetime guarantee. If you lose your data they can either give you a refund for your disk or a new disk (probably whichever is cheaper). Still they are the only disks on the market that have a chance to keep data in tack for 20+ years.

    Verbatim still makes datalife disks. They are 8x Azo with metalic foil tops. They go for a premium price 4/$1 and not found at Best Buy. I suspect the foil prevents light from damaging the dye. The back is protected by the case. The foil may also keep chemicals from getting into the dyed part of the DVD. I use a sharpie to label my disks. I just learned that may be part of my problem. While it doesn't effect foil topped DVDs, apparently it can speed up the aging of DVDs without foil.

    I have located another quality DVD blank manufacturer. Falcon Media, I couldn't find them listed as a company using google so they are probably Chinese. I bought 50 dual layer 8x silver/Azo dual layers for about a buck a piece. You can get Verbatim for about the same price but I wanted to check them out. They got good reviews on some other video forums.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
  15. Mez

    Mez Active member

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    I will advise against Falcon media. I'm having trouble with them. I will buy some Verbatim silver dual layer and see if I have the same problems. It possible much of the problems are dual layer and not the blank. I will check if I have the same problems.

    I got some Verbatim dual layers. They also make too many coasters. I am guessing the dual layers are just twice as easy to screw up. Twice the data in the same space. Still, they hold twice the data and can be read by a normal reader. That is worth something.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016

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